[News] A woman is a woman.

[Albion in the north]

What a weird court case and waste of time and money

Honestly

Where is the common sense ?

Can treat everyone with the respect they deserve whilst having safety in things like sport / female safe spaces

Common sense is not very common.
Nobody said life was meant to be fair. We all have our own cross to bear.

 

[Weststander]

Common sense is not very common.
Nobody said life was meant to be fair. We all have our own cross to bear.

Especially at Easter for some .

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I always thought you worked from home. That’s impressive commitment to waste and sanitation, if so.

Did I say 'work'?
What was I thinking?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Establishments are allowed to have unisex toilets, right? So can't they also have toilets that are for people with male gender, and people with female gender? Meaning that trans women will be able to use the same toilets as sis women?

I'm not sure this ruling forces establishments to stop trans people from using the toilet that seems appropriate to them.

No. The Gents and Ladies appellations now apply to biological sex, not gender. Transgender (TG) male-to-female and female-to-male people will now have to use the toilet of their biological sex, when there are no gender neutral toilets available.

Yes, someone (let's say a woman) who fully transitioned decades ago and looks exactly like what they always wanted to be (a bloke) will now have the right to use the toilet of their birth (in this case the Ladies). So, yes, a fully transitioned female to male TG person, with male pattern baldness and a full beard and hairy chest will now be able to use the Ladies. In fact they will be required by law to use the Ladies when only Ladies and Gents are available.

That is, I suspect, one of the unintentional consequences of the legislation that will need to be rectified. In the end, the legal nuance loophole, triggered by the Scottish parliament and proliferated by 'certain sorts', that certain women seemed to think would allow TG former-male rapists to prowl the Ladies, a loophole that has now been 'fixed', could come back to haunt them. The issue is nuanced after all. Who knew?

The solution will be a proliferation of gender neutral toilets. I can see it becoming law soon that public buildings and places of employment MUST offer gender neutral facilities. That's fine by me.

 

[birthofanorange]

No. The Gents and Ladies appellations now apply to biological sex, not gender. Transgender (TG) male-to-female and female-to-male people will now have to use the toilet of their biological sex, when there are no gender neutral toilets available.

Yes, someone (let's say a woman) who fully transitioned decades ago and looks exactly like what they always wanted to be (a bloke) will now have the right to use the toilet of their birth (in this case the Ladies). So, yes, a fully transitioned female to male TG person, with male pattern baldness and a full beard and hairy chest will now be able to use the Ladies. In fact they will be required by law to use the Ladies when only Ladies and Gents are available.

That is, I suspect, one of the unintentional consequences of the legislation that will need to be rectified. In the end, the legal nuance loophole, triggered by the Scottish parliament and proliferated by 'certain sorts', that certain women seemed to think would allow TG former-male rapists to prowl the Ladies, a loophole that has now been 'fixed', could come back to haunt them. The issue is nuanced after all. Who knew?

The solution will be a proliferation of gender neutral toilets. I can see it becoming law soon that public buildings and places of employment MUST offer gender neutral facilities. That's fine by me.

And the same applies for a male to female TG person?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I've read it now and found it unconvincing. The woman concerned states that "The emphasis should be on skill, less on strength. Muscularity does not make a difference. Skill crosses genders." which, in terms of football, is rubbish. A brief footnote mentions that height acquired as a boy is not lost on transitioning to a woman, but the whole tone of the article is that being tall gives her no advantage at all as a goalkeeper. again, that's rubbish.

But also, this is a relatively trivial case. The FA is willing, it seems, to allow trans women to play in women's football if it's clear and obvious that they aren't getting an advantage from it. This does not mean that they would allow Harry Kane to extend his England career with a trans certificate. Top level professional sport needs to be fair to cis women as well as to trans women, and that can't be done by making assessments of the relative benefits of suppressive drugs and male puberty.

If a particular trans woman has taken so many drugs for so long that she can fit into a woman's game without any competitive advantage (which I don't think is true in this case, but that's by the by) then a case can be made for allowing it. This must not be used to give blanket permission for trans men to play women's sport because it is unfair on cis women.

You are right, and now that there is 'clarity' on the biological sex of an individual whose biological sex was unequivocal at birth (note this is not always the case - trans-sexuality is usually a genetic chromosomic type, and there are other non-chromosmic types of trans sexuality that lead to biological sex uncertainty) I can see the emergence of trans sport. It does not need to be nuanced either. We are now all defined by sex and gender.

For male to female TG people, the physical advantages of having been through male puberty (in most cases) requires they not compete with biological females and a separate category is the only solution.

For female to male TG people, they wouldn't want to compete as women (by definition, unless they are bonkers), but they are highly likely to be physically disadvantaged if they tried to compete as males, so we would need a second TG category (F to M) for them too.

This is not meant to be pejorative, but why not create these two TG categories (M to F, and F to M) for the Paralympics? The Paralympics is for people who are disadvantaged in some way (physically or mentally) preventing them competing on equal terms with 'able bodied' or 'able minded' folk of the same sex. That would certainly apply to any TG category in physical sport.

Frankly, if this is palatable why not extend it to any competition where presently there are two categories (M and F)? This would mean that a TG person (of either sex heritage) could compete unhindered in equestrian events, chess, darts and suchlike, but for sex-divided sport they could not participate.

So when sex is the determinant for participation, access and qualification, as it is for many things, not just the lavs, we could now have 4 categories that are defined by sex and gender: M, F, TG M to F, and TG F to M.

 

[beorhthelm]

No. The Gents and Ladies appellations now apply to biological sex, not gender. Transgender (TG) male-to-female and female-to-male people will now have to use the toilet of their biological sex, when there are no gender neutral toilets available.

Yes, someone (let's say a woman) who fully transitioned decades ago and looks exactly like what they always wanted to be (a bloke) will now have the right to use the toilet of their birth (in this case the Ladies). So, yes, a fully transitioned female to male TG person, with male pattern baldness and a full beard and hairy chest will now be able to use the Ladies. In fact they will be required by law to use the Ladies when only Ladies and Gents are available.

That is, I suspect, one of the unintentional consequences of the legislation that will need to be rectified. In the end, the legal nuance loophole, triggered by the Scottish parliament and proliferated by 'certain sorts', that certain women seemed to think would allow TG former-male rapists to prowl the Ladies, a loophole that has now been 'fixed', could come back to haunt them. The issue is nuanced after all. Who knew?

The solution will be a proliferation of gender neutral toilets. I can see it becoming law soon that public buildings and places of employment MUST offer gender neutral facilities. That's fine by me.

the toilet scenario is really just some rhetoric. in normal common sense, those that look and behave the part will continue to use the set of cubicles they see fit - no one will really know. aside a few institutions that will make a large song and dance about compliance. for those that dont really look the part, they'll have to navigate as best they can as they do today.

there are more serious scenarios of transgendered accessing women's refuges, sent to womens prisons, that legally couldnt be stopped before. now they can.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

And the same applies for a male to female TG person?

Yes.

You will now be able to enjoy the company of an attractive-looking male to female TG, all big hair, lippy, arse and cleavage, split skirt revealing stockings and suspenders, attempting to piss in the urinal next to you via her modified external genitalia (or what she was born with, if it hasn't yet been modified). Brace yourself.

 

[birthofanorange]

Yes.

You will now be able to enjoy the company of an attractive-looking male to female TG, all big hair, lippy, arse and cleavage, split skirt revealing stockings and suspenders, attempting to piss in the urinal next to you via her modified external genitalia (or what she was born with, if it hasn't yet been modified). Brace yourself.

Think I'd better start going out again.

 

[Curious Orange]

...all big hair, lippy, arse and cleavage, split skirt revealing stockings and suspenders, attempting to piss in the urinal next to you...

Sounds like an average night out clubbing in South Wales in the '90's...

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

the toilet scenario outside is really just some rhetoric. in normal common sense, those that look and behave the part will continue to use the set of cubicles they see fit - no one will really know. aside a few institutions that will make a large song and dance about compliance. for those that dont really look the part, they'll have to navigate as best they can as they do today.

there are more serious scenarios of transgendered accessing women's refuges, sent to womens prisons, that legally couldnt be stopped before. now they can.

You mean.....that people will break the law if they think they can get away with it?

Of course you are right.

I recall, almost 50 years ago, in the toilets of the Buccaneer, at a punk gig, a gay bloke I knew went into the gents for a piss while attached via a chain and dog collar to the dog collar of a young woman we knew, with a shaven head and a bored expression, playing submissive for the evening. Nobody batted an eyelid.

It does seem like an incredible amount of fear and loathing just to enshrine in law something to stop an obvious deviant rapist from swanning around in a women's prison. As others have said, imagined rights need not hold sway over common sense.

One can only hope that similar massive changes in the law are incoming to deal with the possibility of a terrorist being allowed special privileges so he can ponce around in a prison kitchen, sharpening home-made weapons and boiling up some cooking fat with which to attack the guards.....given that common sense does not seem to prevail when certain governors are in charge.

 

[keaton]

The ruling yesterday should hopefully help this Nurse in her legal action against the NHS for the action taken against her .

Christian nurse punished by NHS for calling transgender paedophile ‘Mr’

Jennifer Melle, from Croydon, was disciplined by Epsom and St Helier University Hospital Trust when she declined to use female pronouns for a convicted paedophile

www.standard.co.uk

NHS lawyers have argued that Melle's Christian belief that humans are born male or female is "not worthy of respect in a democratic society."

Not really, I reckon people will still be sacked if they fail the respect aspect of their job requirements

 

[GT49er]

The solution will be a proliferation of gender neutral toilets. I can see it becoming law soon that public buildings and places of employment MUST offer gender neutral facilities. That's fine by me.

Sod that! It'd be much better legislation if local authorities, larger shops, petrol stations, etc. were just compelled to provide toilets, any bloody toilets, and plenty of them! After nearly all public loos have been closed, there are far more people out and about needing a loo - any loo - than trans-gender people looking for specific loos just for them!

 

[keaton]

The solution will be a proliferation of gender neutral toilets. I can see it becoming law soon that public buildings and places of employment MUST offer gender neutral facilities. That's fine by me.

Yes, that has seemed like a pretty common sense solution for a years, and one that only loony culture warriors to get too worked up about

Government to lay new law to halt the march of gender-neutral toilets in buildings

New requirements will be brought forward for single sex toilet facilities in new non-domestic buildings to alleviate safety, privacy and dignity concerns.

www.gov.uk

 

[fly high]

Not really, I reckon people will still be sacked if they fail the respect aspect of their job requirements

In this instance I fully support the nurse. Convicted paedophiles don't deserve any respect.

 

[Triggaaar]

No. The Gents and Ladies appellations now apply to biological sex, not gender.

What about unisex toilets?

Yes, someone (let's say a woman) who fully transitioned decades ago and looks exactly like what they always wanted to be (a bloke) will now have the right to use the toilet of their birth (in this case the Ladies). So, yes, a fully transitioned female to male TG person, with male pattern baldness and a full beard and hairy chest will now be able to use the Ladies. In fact they will be required by law to use the Ladies when only Ladies and Gents are available.

Madness.

 

[Freddo]

I don't know enough detail about the rules of chess to say why it is considered necessary to have a separate women's tournament. But if there is such a difference between men and women that women need a separate tournament, then it should be for women only.

I'm not aware that women are restricted from playing open chess. Is there such a thing as a men-only tournament? I thought most chess competitions were open to all, any sex, any age?

Given there is nothing physical about playing chess, in my opinion anyone that says transwomen should be excluded from participating is prejudiced, and I find it mad that anyone could think otherwise.

 

[DJ NOBO]

Female-only chess tournaments were introduced a while ago mainly to encourage more women to play what was a very male-dominated sport.

It’s rather a leftfield example to draw on to prove biological males should be allowed to compete in other female sports, particularly physically competitive sports.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

Given there is nothing physical about playing chess, in my opinion anyone that says transwomen should be excluded from participating is prejudiced, and I find it mad that anyone could think otherwise.

You could knock over the pieces with your BOOBS

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

What about unisex toilets?





Madness.

Unisex toilets are gender neutral toilets. If any gender can use them, so can any sex.
They have been like this for ever as far as I recall.
And funnily enough, most homes have at least one.