[News] A woman is a woman.

[BadFish]

Really?

So, you see the same fish in the shallows and in the deep?

Having reflected on my comment I have realised that in fact a fish could be out of its depth. This could perhaps cause problems with the skeletal make up of the fish due to water pressure, possibly problems with organs too. Causing I guess, the fish to become stroppy and patronising.

I will join you and do my best to Use the phrase often, perhaps we can push it into common vernacular.

 

[Albion my Albion]

there were under 100,000 declared trans people of both sexes combined.

Isn't that the real problem that the sexes are combined and the small number of cases is not a BIG issue.

 

[BadFish]

Anyway good people, it has been correctly pointed out to me that I am spending way too much time on this thread.

Time to hop off the merry go round and reenter the real world.

Thanks to most for an informative and interesting discussion.

BF

 

[dsr-burnley]

That bit is where emotions run high and people disagree and get very nasty with it on both sides.

The gist is that male trans people identifying as women want to be treated as women in society, because they feel they are women. This includes the legally protected right to do everything from changing in women’s spaces, to competing in women’s sports.

Some people feel this is inappropriate, because while male trans people identifying as women are relatively few in number, taking the issue of competing in women’s sports, they are seen as having an unfair advantage. Swimmer Lia Thomas, for example, lived as a man until he was 18, when he became a she after discovering their gender identity. In this time, Thomas went from ranked #462 as a male to #1 as a female. This pissed other female swimmers off, as they felt it was no longer an even playing field when genetics were so heavily skewed against them.

Despite the yelling and screaming from both TERFs and militant trans protestors, there isn’t one right or wrong answer to this complicated issue.

The fact remains that in the 2021 census, there were under 100,000 declared trans people of both sexes combined.

The men in women's sports should never have been an issue and shouldn't be an issue going forward. All but the most fanatical recognise that there are still essentially two sexes, which used to be called male and female. The change of definition of the words male and female has not changed biology. All that is needed to to affirm, or reaffirm, that the point of women's sports is to give those who are biologically women the chance to play competitions where they can win. Gender is irrelevant.

As for the changing room issue, this unfair dismissal case of a nurse in Scotland shows just how fast the rules are changing. Ten years ago, if someone came into a women's changing room and exposed his (or her) penis at the women in there, he would have been removed and probably arrested. Now if he (or she) exposes his penis to the women there, any woman who objects is the one to be removed.

 

[chip]

This thread is an interesting read but would be much better informed if there were more comments from female posters as the discussion seems to be mostly about trans women by men. I've no idea what it would feel like to be a woman and I'm not sure I could articulate what being a man feels like.

My partner has seen an increasing number of trans men in recent years and it is remarkle how many (all) have experienced childhood trauma. What we do know is that the probability of a trans person needing psychiatric care is around 5 times that of the general population: https://www.theguardian.com/society...and-more-likely-mental-health-condition-study. I think we can do all the reading we like but we are long way from understanding gender dysphoria and its social context. My partner's trans clients all seem to have encountered discriminatory behaviour within their families, the law is not going to make much difference to that as others have given plenty of examples of domestic abuse and it seems to be increasing.

 

[Curious Orange]

Good points @chip . For what it is worth I don't think most people give their own sex or gender a second thought for the most part, let alone anyone else's.

 

[fly high]

This thread is an interesting read but would be much better informed if there were more comments from female posters as the discussion seems to be mostly about trans women by men. I've no idea what it would feel like to be a woman and I'm not sure I could articulate what being a man feels like.

My partner has seen an increasing number of trans men in recent years and it is remarkle how many (all) have experienced childhood trauma. What we do know is that the probability of a trans person needing psychiatric care is around 5 times that of the general population: https://www.theguardian.com/society...and-more-likely-mental-health-condition-study. I think we can do all the reading we like but we are long way from understanding gender dysphoria and its social context. My partner's trans clients all seem to have encountered discriminatory behaviour within their families, the law is not going to make much difference to that as others have given plenty of examples of domestic abuse and it seems to be increasing.

I think that was the problem with the Tavistock clinic. Youg girls taken at face value, not given proper counselling but given drugs without fully exploring their mental health. Rushing to have their breasts removed then maybe regretting it later. It may well have been right for them but they still had the mental health issues which have never been addressed.

A friend of Mum's son told his parents a few years ago he wanted to be a woman. They and their two sisters were fully supportive and understanding. She had for some time suffered mental health problems and initially was a lot happier but now still has problems. Should her mental health have been explored more before she actually started living as a woman?

 

[PascalGroß Tips]

I think that was the problem with the Tavistock clinic. Youg girls taken at face value, not given proper counselling but given drugs without fully exploring their mental health. Rushing to have their breasts removed then maybe regretting it later. It may well have been right for them but they still had the mental health issues which have never been addressed.

A friend of Mum's son told his parents a few years ago he wanted to be a woman. They and their two sisters were fully supportive and understanding. She had for some time suffered mental health problems and initially was a lot happier but now still has problems. Should her mental health have been explored more before she actually started living as a woman?

It must be very difficult for young people - especially in this day and age of social media. For the son of your mum's friend - if suffering with mental health problems - I would have thought it was vital that mental health support was explored. Probably not as easy in practice as it is to type. And maybe it needs to be more general mental health support as opposed to somewhere like the Tavistock Clinic ... where before you know it, the vulnerable person involved is pushed down a certain path that might not ultimately be the right one for them. There have certainly been a number of stories where the individual ultimately had a change of mind (putting it in simple terms). They were going through a mental health crisis and 'just' needed help and support.

Back in the 1970s, when I was in my early teens (I can't remember when exactly) ... one of my cousins decided she wanted to live as a he. For me, my mum, dad, brother and sister it was a simple, "oh OK". As a she, she worked part time at some riding stables in Dorset where the key people she worked with were lesbians. I'm not meaning to be unkind or derogatory when I say they were more 'butch' lesbians. It was suggested that this is where the 'influence' might have come from. But I never really got to know much more as we had very little contact with that side of the family - other than my Uncle (my mum's brother) who left the matrimonial home as he was being mentally and physically abused by his wife who had severe mental health issues (I think she might have even been sectioned at one point).

 

[carlzeiss]

Has anyone properly addressed why trans activists decided to deface statues?

No just defacing statues but also holding banners calling for stabbings ,hangings and burning at the stake . All under the noses of plod

 

[Mr Bridger]

And it's 80 years since Enid Blyton wrote a series of books about a girl who was so determined that she wanted to be a boy that she wore boys' clothes and used a boy's name, and it wasn't remotely controversial.

If that was what the trans lobby wanted, there wouldn't be much pushback. If people who look like women want to use the women's toilets, there wouldn't be much pushback. It's because they want trans women to play women's sport at the complete abolition of fairness, it's because they want male rapists in women's prisons, it's because they want medical records to be based on what is in a person's brain so they don't even record whether the person should be called for a prostate test or a cervical test. The trans lobby, or some of them, are asking for nonsensical things and so of course they are getting stick.

Was this one of them

 

[Cotton Socks]

This thread is an interesting read but would be much better informed if there were more comments from female posters as the discussion seems to be mostly about trans women by men. I've no idea what it would feel like to be a woman and I'm not sure I could articulate what being a man feels like.

My partner has seen an increasing number of trans men in recent years and it is remarkle how many (all) have experienced childhood trauma. What we do know is that the probability of a trans person needing psychiatric care is around 5 times that of the general population: https://www.theguardian.com/society...and-more-likely-mental-health-condition-study. I think we can do all the reading we like but we are long way from understanding gender dysphoria and its social context. My partner's trans clients all seem to have encountered discriminatory behaviour within their families, the law is not going to make much difference to that as others have given plenty of examples of domestic abuse and it seems to be increasing.

As long as there are cubicles in changing rooms I couldn't give a s**t. I've never been comfortable with female only changing rooms that don't have cubicles, that's possibly due to my own body consciousness.

Re toilets. I don't care, I have been known on one or two occasions to use the gents, as before loads of people started taking coke they used to have free cubicles. Women's loos have long queues. I walked through apologising & saying I'm not looking & no one seemed to care but I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that all the time.
There's a pub in town that just has a gender neutral toilet due to space & I wouldn't want to go in there with flip flops on & wearing something long. Absolutely nothing to do with feeling it should be a female space, just pissed blokes don't seem to be able to aim straight & it was a bit minging. In defence a females loo I went into a couple of months ago was disgusting, think used sanitary towel on the floor (actually probably best not to think about it).

Sports basically depends what the sport is. As a campaigner in school to let girls play basketball (we were only allowed to play netball) at that age we were all equal, same as football. We had to play mixed hockey, getting smacked on the shins by a hockey stick hurt no matter which sex had control of it. The women's game of football probably wouldn't be so different to men's if we weren't separated in school. Anything like boxing having mixed competitions is stupid, a male fully transitioned to female is still likely to have an advantage. Chess, darts, pool, I don't think it makes any difference. I was quite shocked to hear that women can fill in for a male in a darts team if not enough players, but men can't fill in for the women's team. If a bloke wants to join a women's darts team & hear us talking about kids, menopause & the annoying stuff our partners do they're probably more than welcome. Aside from conversations about childbirth & menopause they can chip in with whatever..

I have always been what you'd call a tomboy, scratched knees from climbing trees when I was a kid etc. I don't think I've changed much over the years (aside from climbing trees). I'm not one who cares about my nails, I find having to wear skirts or dresses a trauma I'm more comfortable in jeans and trainers, I am the odd one out in my friendship group. I've traumatised some of my friends by making them come on a dog walk through a lot of mud. I drink pints or beer straight out of the bottle, in the '90's I would've been called a 'geezer bird'. I do wear a small bit of make up if I'm going somewhere! Even my girliest of friends wouldn't care about a bloke using a women's loo, as long as they didn't try and push in the queue & aimed straight! I'm so for equality that I don't care about toilet seats up or down as someone has to either lift it or put it down. Why should men be expected to do it? I don't feel threatened by it.

For my degree I carried out an experiment that was solely based on the difference between males & females brain processes. It was based on biology not gender. At the start of the experiment where you had to fill in all the demographic gumph. There were no boxes to tick for gender it was literally a question of male or female according to the sex on your birth cert. What someone identified as was completely irrelevant to the experiment.

Just to clarify, I'm heterosexual, have no interest in becoming a male but am not a 'girly girl'. The only time I feel nervous about the possibility of being attacked is when I'm on my own. Things like walking the dog really early morning or after dark, walking back from the pub after 10 pints (10 pints might be a slight exaggeration), toilets are not on my radar.

I have no experience of prison but I'd suggest it depends on the reason for imprisonment. To be fair I have no experience of a refuge either but that is far more of a delicate situation than sports & toilets. I'd feel aggrieved if I needed to go into a refuge & all the women's ones were filled up so was refused but knew there was space in the men's refuge. If things were that bad to need refuge then I'd take it, no matter who was there (aside from the person I was seeking refuge from).

I have a friend that used to be 'woke, lefty, liberal', I'm not sure how but he's become a 'Trump supporting tw@t'. When the ruling was coming in he turned up the news on the radio, the news isn't normally on, the next day he did the same. Gleefully rejoicing that 'common sense' has prevailed. When I asked him what difference it made to him I just got whataboutery (similar toilet discussion). I was a bit more blunt the next day & pointed out that as neither he or I consider him a female in any way shape or form, he should just stfu as he has no clue what he's talking about. Being a male & over 6ft tall, I don't think he's ever been worried about walking alone.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The men in women's sports should never have been an issue and shouldn't be an issue going forward. All but the most fanatical recognise that there are still essentially two sexes, which used to be called male and female. The change of definition of the words male and female has not changed biology. All that is needed to to affirm, or reaffirm, that the point of women's sports is to give those who are biologically women the chance to play competitions where they can win. Gender is irrelevant.

As for the changing room issue, this unfair dismissal case of a nurse in Scotland shows just how fast the rules are changing. Ten years ago, if someone came into a women's changing room and exposed his (or her) penis at the women in there, he would have been removed and probably arrested. Now if he (or she) exposes his penis to the women there, any woman who objects is the one to be removed.

Changing rooms are (now) unequivocally segregated by biological sex.

If someone came int a women's changing room waving a penis around it would be a biological female who had been gender reassigned as male.
(with some fairly serious surgery to create a penis).

They would be legally required to use the women's changing room because their female biological sex trumps all other considerations.

A biological male is (now) not allowed in a women's space. Even if they have had gender reassignment and their cock and balls replaced with a vagina (this is possible and is a major bit of surgery).

Nobody would be arrested for complaining that someone is waving a penis around in a women's changing room, whether legally (as a biological female) or illegally (as a biological male).

You have failed to keep up

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

As long as there are cubicles in changing rooms I couldn't give a s**t. I've never been comfortable with female only changing rooms that don't have cubicles, that's possibly due to my own body consciousness.

Re toilets. I don't care, I have been known on one or two occasions to use the gents, as before loads of people started taking coke they used to have free cubicles. Women's loos have long queues. I walked through apologising & saying I'm not looking & no one seemed to care but I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that all the time.
There's a pub in town that just has a gender neutral toilet due to space & I wouldn't want to go in there with flip flops on & wearing something long. Absolutely nothing to do with feeling it should be a female space, just pissed blokes don't seem to be able to aim straight & it was a bit minging. In defence a females loo I went into a couple of months ago was disgusting, think used sanitary towel on the floor (actually probably best not to think about it).

Sports basically depends what the sport is. As a campaigner in school to let girls play basketball (we were only allowed to play netball) at that age we were all equal, same as football. We had to play mixed hockey, getting smacked on the shins by a hockey stick hurt no matter which sex had control of it. The women's game of football probably wouldn't be so different to men's if we weren't separated in school. Anything like boxing having mixed competitions is stupid, a male fully transitioned to female is still likely to have an advantage. Chess, darts, pool, I don't think it makes any difference. I was quite shocked to hear that women can fill in for a male in a darts team if not enough players, but men can't fill in for the women's team. If a bloke wants to join a women's darts team & hear us talking about kids, menopause & the annoying stuff our partners do they're probably more than welcome. Aside from conversations about childbirth & menopause they can chip in with whatever..

I have always been what you'd call a tomboy, scratched knees from climbing trees when I was a kid etc. I don't think I've changed much over the years (aside from climbing trees). I'm not one who cares about my nails, I find having to wear skirts or dresses a trauma I'm more comfortable in jeans and trainers, I am the odd one out in my friendship group. I've traumatised some of my friends by making them come on a dog walk through a lot of mud. I drink pints or beer straight out of the bottle, in the '90's I would've been called a 'geezer bird'. I do wear a small bit of make up if I'm going somewhere! Even my girliest of friends wouldn't care about a bloke using a women's loo, as long as they didn't try and push in the queue & aimed straight! I'm so for equality that I don't care about toilet seats up or down as someone has to either lift it or put it down. Why should men be expected to do it? I don't feel threatened by it.

For my degree I carried out an experiment that was solely based on the difference between males & females brain processes. It was based on biology not gender. At the start of the experiment where you had to fill in all the demographic gumph. There were no boxes to tick for gender it was literally a question of male or female according to the sex on your birth cert. What someone identified as was completely irrelevant to the experiment.

Just to clarify, I'm heterosexual, have no interest in becoming a male but am not a 'girly girl'. The only time I feel nervous about the possibility of being attacked is when I'm on my own. Things like walking the dog really early morning or after dark, walking back from the pub after 10 pints (10 pints might be a slight exaggeration), toilets are not on my radar.

I have no experience of prison but I'd suggest it depends on the reason for imprisonment. To be fair I have no experience of a refuge either but that is far more of a delicate situation than sports & toilets. I'd feel aggrieved if I needed to go into a refuge & all the women's ones were filled up so was refused but knew there was space in the men's refuge. If things were that bad to need refuge then I'd take it, no matter who was there (aside from the person I was seeking refuge from).

I have a friend that used to be 'woke, lefty, liberal', I'm not sure how but he's become a 'Trump supporting tw@t'. When the ruling was coming in he turned up the news on the radio, the news isn't normally on, the next day he did the same. Gleefully rejoicing that 'common sense' has prevailed. When I asked him what difference it made to him I just got whataboutery (similar toilet discussion). I was a bit more blunt the next day & pointed out that as neither he or I consider him a female in any way shape or form, he should just stfu as he has no clue what he's talking about. Being a male & over 6ft tall, I don't think he's ever been worried about walking alone.

Nearly 50 years ago, my GF used the male toilets in the Alhambra.
Mind you, she was having sex with me in a cubicle at the time.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I think that was the problem with the Tavistock clinic. Youg girls taken at face value, not given proper counselling but given drugs without fully exploring their mental health. Rushing to have their breasts removed then maybe regretting it later. It may well have been right for them but they still had the mental health issues which have never been addressed.

A friend of Mum's son told his parents a few years ago he wanted to be a woman. They and their two sisters were fully supportive and understanding. She had for some time suffered mental health problems and initially was a lot happier but now still has problems. Should her mental health have been explored more before she actually started living as a woman?

This is the trope.

Is there any evidence of any actual people admitting their regret later?

The case you mentioned, well, gender reassignment won't cure a mental health problem but the person may still have been appropriately gender reassigned.

I am getting a knee replacement tomorrow and I have a bad back.
I am not expecting my new knee to fix my back problem.
But I hope it may.
If it doesn't I am not sure it would be appropriate to regret the knee replacement.
That would be silly

 

[Cotton Socks]

Nearly 50 years ago, my GF used the male toilets in the Alhambra.
Mind you, she was having sex with me in a cubicle at the time.

Disgraceful behaviour!!
You wouldn't get away with that in this day and age!! That's only because the queue for the men's cubicles are as long as the women's now & I'm sure that's not for the nefarious reasons of a shag. I've literally called Jnrs name through the concourse loos to check he's ok as he prefers the privacy of a cubicle. Half time... I went to the bar & the women's loos, he went to the mens and he still hadn't come out by the start of the 2nd half as there were no cubicles free. I have said to him that he should perhaps start considering using the urinals as people are going to start assuming he's a coke head.
There are lessons to be learnt by this.... find somewhere else to have a shag as people don't tolerate cubicles being taken up by people fornicating. If you are considering doing the same thing in the future go old skool & find a bike shed! Not the shiny new ones at the Amex though!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Disgraceful behaviour!!
You wouldn't get away with that in this day and age!! That's only because the queue for the men's cubicles are as long as the women's now & I'm sure that's not for the nefarious reasons of a shag. I've literally called Jnrs name through the concourse loos to check he's ok as he prefers the privacy of a cubicle. Half time... I went to the bar & the women's loos, he went to the mens and he still hadn't come out by the start of the 2nd half as there were no cubicles free. I have said to him that he should perhaps start considering using the urinals as people are going to start assuming he's a coke head.
There are lessons to be learnt by this.... find somewhere else to have a shag as people don't tolerate cubicles being taken up by people fornicating. If you are considering doing the same thing in the future go old skool & find a bike shed! Not the shiny new ones at the Amex though!

Well, in my defense, it was a long time ago....

 

[dsr-burnley]

Nobody would be arrested for complaining that someone is waving a penis around in a women's changing room, whether legally (as a biological female) or illegally (as a biological male).

You have failed to keep up

Why would you bother to read a reply to a post that you haven't even read? I said, quote, "Ten years ago, if someone came into a women's changing room and exposed his (or her) penis at the women in there, he would have been removed and probably arrested. Now if he (or she) exposes his penis to the women there, any woman who objects is the one to be removed."

I didn't mention waving a penis about, and I didn't mention that anyone has been arrested for complaining. Both those comments are products of your own brain.

Still, I am glad to know that the Sandie Pegge case - you know, the one about the woman who has been REMOVED from her job - has been settled and cleared and she has returned to her job without a stain on her record. Can you provide the link that proves it please?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Why would you bother to read a reply to a post that you haven't even read? I said, quote, "Ten years ago, if someone came into a women's changing room and exposed his (or her) penis at the women in there, he would have been removed and probably arrested. Now if he (or she) exposes his penis to the women there, any woman who objects is the one to be removed."

Indeed.

And that's nonsense.

 

[jcdenton08]

No just defacing statues but also holding banners calling for stabbings ,hangings and burning at the stake . All under the noses of plod

This is appalling and I would sincerely hope is being investigated and treated as a hate crime by the police.

 

[DJ NOBO]

Nearly 50 years ago, my GF used the male toilets in the Alhambra.
Mind you, she was having sex with me in a cubicle at the time.

Thanks for sharing.
It was a lovely mental image to wake up to