[News] Middle East conflict

Curious Orange · Tuesday at 8:15 AM

hans kraay fan club said:
Sorry - but anyone NOT using the word genocide, doesn’t understand the word genocide.

Okay, I suppose you could argue that Israel are aiming to commit genocide of the group called Hamas, but people on this thread aren't being that specific.

wellquickwoody said:
People keep commenting how civilians and infrastructure faired worse in earlier conflicts, and they are correct.

But since then what is acceptable has changed, or should have changed, modern warfare. The setting up of the United Nations, the creation of the Geneva Convention, Unless one side in a conflict actually is in danger of being wiped out (therefore not Israel) then the indiscriminate, repeated killing of civilians being passed off as collateral damage is no longer acceptable.

Agreed, it is absolutely unacceptable. Israel and Hamas should ceasefire immediately and agree to stop lobbing rockets at each other.

hans kraay fan club · Tuesday at 8:21 AM

Curious Orange said:
Okay, I suppose you could argue that Israel are aiming to commit genocide of the group called Hamas, but people on this thread aren't being that specific.

Nor am I. And more importantly, nor are Israel.

The IDF and Israeli politicians are on record, multiple times, repeating their belief that every Palestinian is complicit.

I’ll help you out, btw:

Definition

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Insel affe · Tuesday at 8:24 AM

Curious Orange said:
I wish people would stop using the word genocide in relation to this conflict.

It is an uncomfortable word is it not, but that is what it is.

Curious Orange said:
If that was the genuine intent of Israel then Gaza would have been levelled months ago without having to commit ground troops.

Nah, if Israel had done that, there would have had immediate condemnation, this way they slowly work through Palestine making sure all their targets are achieved and to hell with the collateral damage. In these days of precision warfare there is no excuse to flatten all before the might of the Israeli war machine.

All the condemnation in the world is not going to stop Israel, the west is to pre occupied with elections and appeasing there own war industries/sales, war is big business and the west profits from this ongoing war.

Curious Orange · Tuesday at 8:35 AM

Thanks for posting that @hans kraay fan club , it is useful to the thread to see that in writing. I stand by what I said, based on that definition.

I also reiterate that I do not in any way condone what either Israel or Hamas are doing, they are all complicit in what is happening to the innocent victims of this horrific conflict. I also take a dim view of Egypt's refusal to take refugees (yes, I know 100,000 people have crossed the border, but they are not technically refugees, and someone is on a nice little earner arranging their visits).

:J) · Tuesday at 12:09 PM

Curious Orange said:
Thanks for posting that @hans kraay fan club , it is useful to the thread to see that in writing. I stand by what I said, based on that definition.

I also reiterate that I do not in any way condone what either Israel or Hamas are doing, they are all complicit in what is happening to the innocent victims of this horrific conflict. I also take a dim view of Egypt's refusal to take refugees (yes, I know 100,000 people have crossed the border, but they are not technically refugees, and someone is on a nice little earner arranging their visits).

Jesus wept. Since 1948 the percentage of Palestinians killed in the conflict have far outnumbered those of Israelis. This old Vox article (from 2014) states that "87 percent of deaths have been Palestinian and only 13 percent Israeli", but "the most striking thing about this chart [see article] may be how dramatically the rate of Israeli deaths has declined since the early 2000s, with many months passing with no deaths at all."

Fast forward to the present day - and the past 12 months or so. Even after Hamas' devastating attack on 7 October 2023 the ratio has only gone up - according to these charts in Statista ratio is more like 96.5% vs 3.5%). And that is assuming that the figures of deaths in Gaza/West Bank are accurate, after the Israelis have decimated state structures that help count the dead: hospitals, aid agencies, water facilities, etc - or those who report on the dead (journalists killed, Western reporters not allowed in). So The Lancet as well as other agencies have estimated that deaths could be at least 186,000 (at the time of the report, July 2024). Included in this figure are those killed through famine, lack of water, medical supplies etc - all things that Israel is actively blocking.

And like @hans kraay fan club says - "The IDF and Israeli politicians are on record, multiple times, repeating their belief that every Palestinian is complicit."

But no... it's BOTH SIDES.

Curious Orange · Tuesday at 12:21 PM

:J) said:
But no... it's BOTH SIDES.

Indeed, there is no justification for the violence inflicted by either side.

Actually, let me clarify that. There is no no moral justification (to me at least) for the violence inflicted by either side. Though one side has it's own idealogical justification for it's violence, and the other has what appears to be the justification of revenge as theirs.

dsr-burnley · Tuesday at 1:51 PM

wellquickwoody said:
People keep commenting how civilians and infrastructure faired worse in earlier conflicts, and they are correct.

But since then what is acceptable has changed, or should have changed, modern warfare. The setting up of the United Nations, the creation of the Geneva Convention, Unless one side in a conflict actually is in danger of being wiped out (therefore not Israel) then the indiscriminate, repeated killing of civilians being passed off as collateral damage is no longer acceptable.

It's not as easy as we might think. Yes, Israel has far better ability to hit their targets than the WW2 bombers, but on the other hand when the enemy is hiding troops in a hospital, it's hard to hit the troops but not the hospital. (It's also against the Geneva Convention to station troops in a hospital.)

Why is Hamas still fighting? Are they trying to achieve anything, apart from the death of more of their people? If they surrendered to the United Nations then they would get all the peace and aid that they need, though hopefully this time they won't use the aid on tunnels and weapons of war.

Sea Cider · Tuesday at 2:16 PM

Not saying it isn't happening, but seems like a nice easy justification for destruction of any hospital, bank, civilian structures, women, children etc

"There were terrorists hiding behind them"

Westdene Seagull · Tuesday at 2:42 PM

Curious Orange said:
Why would they care? They don't seem at all bothered about anyone's opinion about the terrible things that they are doing*.

* Hamas started it by doing a terrible thing, and continue to do terrible things.

Firstly the Israeli Defence Minister ( a stark raving extreme right winger ) has made it clear in his statements about the future of Gaza that he expects Palestinians to either leave Gaza or be killed as 'combatants' - that IS genocide.

Secondly, Hamas started this round BUT both sides have been responsible for the ongoing conflict over the last 80 years. Israel used terrorist tactics against the British at the beginning. Both Hamas et al and the Israeli government are terrorist organisations intent on genocide.

wellquickwoody · Tuesday at 5:46 PM

dsr-burnley said:
It's not as easy as we might think. Yes, Israel has far better ability to hit their targets than the WW2 bombers, but on the other hand when the enemy is hiding troops in a hospital, it's hard to hit the troops but not the hospital. (It's also against the Geneva Convention to station troops in a hospital.)

Why is Hamas still fighting? Are they trying to achieve anything, apart from the death of more of their people? If they surrendered to the United Nations then they would get all the peace and aid that they need, though hopefully this time they won't use the aid on tunnels and weapons of war.

UN installations, refugee camps, snipers taking out children, journalists targeted, holding back aid (Yanks telling them to send it in), schools. These are known breaches of international law Over a period of more than a year.

We could then start on treatment of prisoners, West Bank ethnic cleansing, utter disregard for Lebanese sovereignty, attacks on other countries, the list is hardly a glowing report of a humanitarian and law abiding state. Yes, Israel was attacked, but over a year ago which cannot excuse what is happening now.

Zeberdi · Tuesday at 9:02 PM

Curious Orange said:
Thanks for posting that @hans kraay fan club , it is useful to the thread to see that in writing. I stand by what I said, based on that definition.

I also reiterate that I do not in any way condone what either Israel or Hamas are doing, they are all complicit in what is happening to the innocent victims of this horrific conflict. I also take a dim view of Egypt's refusal to take refugees (yes, I know 100,000 people have crossed the border, but they are not technically refugees, and someone is on a nice little earner arranging their visits).

The definition of Genocide has been posted a few times on this thread but it is important to say that ‘genocide’ as a legal definition is difficult and complex to establish legally and the definition in the Genocide Convention requires that ‘intent’ is present. Netanyahu is currently facing an application by the prosecutor at the ICJ to charge him as a war criminal and Israel is facing a case of genocide at the ICJ.

1 year of Gaza genocide: Will Netanyahu soon be an accused war criminal?

Legal action at the ICJ and ICC are an ‘unprecedented breach of Israel’s decades-long impunity,’ says veteran war crimes prosecutor Reed Brody - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

Israel could claim that they are not ‘intentionally’ trying to destroy the Palestinian people - in fact they have claimed that repeatedly - in actions too - by banning UNWRA on one hand and saying aid must continue on another, is exactly that. So is bombing residential buildings and destroying hospitals but saying they are targeting the terrorists using them.

Unfortunately cases take years to go through the International Court and then there is a lack of enforcement mechanisms for convictions under international law - by the time it comes to Israel actually facing punishment, it will be too late for the Palestinian people if genocide really is the objective.

As for Egypt’s refusal to take refugees - Egypt’s refusal is because Egypt is a Muslim Country that will not support the forceable removal of Palestinians under the pretext of ‘refugee flights’ when there is no right of return in place. Palestinians do not want to leave Gaza if they have no means of returning. I am totally on board with that. If Palestinians started to be removed from Gaza with no guaranteed right to return in place, how long would it be before Jewish settlement programmes began again in that small strip of land?

Zeberdi · Tuesday at 9:35 PM

Curious Orange said:
Okay, I suppose you could argue that Israel are aiming to commit genocide of the group called Hamas, but people on this thread aren't being that specific.

No you could not.

I’ll be specific for you.

Hamas are not a distinct, national, ethnic, racial or religious group they are a terrorist organisation. They are a highly radicalised Palestinian armed guerrilla group and political movement that is rooted in Jihadist fundamentalist Islamic ideology. The definition of ‘genocide’ does not stretch to a just such group in a society that is otherwise indistinguishable from the rest of that society on the grounds of ethnicity, nationality, race etc

The whole Palestinian people on the other hand living in Gaza and the rest of the occupied territories, ie the civilians and Hamas (around 5m) are a nation of people with a distinct ethnic and national identity and are primarily sunni muslim.

Palestinians as a ’people’ certainly can in principle be the victims of genocide and the International Court is currently considering whether that is in fact unfolding.

A1X · Tuesday at 9:44 PM

Sea Cider said:
Not saying it isn't happening, but seems like a nice easy justification for destruction of any hospital, bank, civilian structures, women, children etc

"There were terrorists hiding behind them"

The press: “Oh OK, can we see the evidence of the terrorists being there?”

The IDF: “No.”

Hastings gull · Tuesday at 10:46 PM

A1X said:
The press: “Oh OK, can we see the evidence of the terrorists being there?”

The IDF: “No.”

But how would you get evidence of them being there? With Israeli raids on their hideouts, I am sure that they would not want the world to see that they had indeed used schools etc to hide in, and use as weapon dumps, as Israel claims. That would totally destroy their credibility.

:J) · Wednesday at 11:38 AM

Hastings gull said:
But how would you get evidence of them being there? With Israeli raids on their hideouts, I am sure that they would not want the world to see that they had indeed used schools etc to hide in, and use as weapon dumps, as Israel claims. That would totally destroy their credibility.

Why does the State of Israel 'hide' the IDF headquarters right slap bang in the middle of densely populated Tel Aviv?

hans kraay fan club · Wednesday at 1:01 PM

A1X said:
The press: “Oh OK, can we see the evidence of the terrorists being there?”

The IDF: “No.” *accidentally blows up reporter's car*

Westdene Seagull · Wednesday at 2:34 PM

Hastings gull said:
But how would you get evidence of them being there? With Israeli raids on their hideouts, I am sure that they would not want the world to see that they had indeed used schools etc to hide in, and use as weapon dumps, as Israel claims. That would totally destroy their credibility.

But conversely, what about the IDFs claim about a hospital in Beirut Hezbollah use for stashing gold and cash? The BBC got unrestricted access to said hospital and searched for said stash - nothing. When the IDF saw the report they claimed the BBC searched in the wrong place. So the BBC searched a second time using IDF info - still nothing. Clearly an IDF lie. They get caught out in Lebanon because the press have access to expose the IDF lies. I wonder why they won't give access to the worlds press to Gaza ?

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[News] Middle East conflict

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Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide​

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Definition

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide