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[News] We want our Marbles back, we want our Marbles back...



Eeyore

Eeyore

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Apr 5, 2014
26,351
PeterT said:
I don’t disagree, although I’ve actually never been there myself.

But then you could say pretty much the same thing about every museum and art gallery in countless other nations too. I’m just wondering where this starts and stops.

I don’t know if we just get to hear about it more in this country because it involves us? It’s a bit like the Spanish claim on Gibraltar which goes back to the early 18th century and the Spanish Wars of Succession which seems to be in the news a lot. I was in Madrid at the weekend and I saw it on a scarf at the football, for example. But much later territorial ‘disputes’ like France getting Nice and Corsica from Italy in later peace treaties from the Napoleonic Wars (I haven’t double checked that, it’s from memory) never seem to come up any more. Edit: Corsica became part of France in 1768, Nice in 1860. Today we view those changes as permanent and beyond dispute, yet changes pre-dating both (Gibraltar) are considered up for grabs 320 years later!

We are probably seen as a soft touch these days, which may be true, especially since Brexit which lost us a lot of friends.
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I think the Gibraltar thing is more a permanently dented case of Spanish pride. Ironic since they hold two enclaves in Morocco. My view is simplistic if slightly uncaring. If the historical inhabitants of a land want to identify with a certain nationality then they should be left alone. In Gibraltar's case that's pretty much everyone.
 




PeterT

PeterT

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Apr 21, 2017
2,397
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maffew said:
Anything stolen should be returned to its origin/original owner if they want it simple as that.
Thieves don't get to keep stuff they have nicked so other people can benefit from it, same difference
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Can you write to V. Putin Esq. and see if you can persuade him too?
 


Curious Orange

Curious Orange

Punxsatawney Phil
Jul 5, 2003
10,257
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maffew said:
Anything stolen should be returned to its origin/original owner if they want it simple as that.
Thieves don't get to keep stuff they have nicked so other people can benefit from it, same difference
Click to expand...

Indeed, the trouble in this case is that it is doubtful that anything was stolen. Presumably the Greeks are looking for some sort of compensation from the Turks for allowing their removal?
 


Sid and the Sharknados

Sid and the Sharknados

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Sep 4, 2022
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Curious Orange said:
Indeed, the trouble in this case is that it is doubtful that anything was stolen. Presumably the Greeks are looking for some sort of compensation from the Turks for allowing their removal?
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I think the Greeks would still be right to regard them as being stolen, even if the specific blame for that could be said to lie with the Turkish government of the time. And on that basis they're quite right to want them back.

If I came home from holiday and found somebody had knowingly bought all my furniture off a squatter I wouldn't shrug my shoulders and think "Well, that's fine. They paid for it so nothing wrong with that."
 


A1X

A1X

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Sep 1, 2017
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I can understand holding onto things where there is a genuine fear that the items might be damaged / destroyed if they were returned to their native country

Greece, however, doesn’t seem to fit that description
 




Driver8

Driver8

On the road...
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Jul 31, 2005
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A1X said:
I can understand holding onto things where there is a genuine fear that the items might be damaged / destroyed if they were returned to their native country

Greece, however, doesn’t seem to fit that description
Click to expand...
Indeed, I visited the acropolis museum in Athens when there for the Europa game and there are blank spaces ready for the pilfered ones to be displayed alongside those not taken.
 


PeterT

PeterT

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Apr 21, 2017
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Driver8 said:
Indeed, I visited the acropolis museum in Athens when there for the Europa game and there are blank spaces ready for the pilfered ones to be displayed alongside those not taken.
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Yes, although that’s no accident. That museum is fairly newly built and they deliberately designed it that way to make a point and show the open wound of what was missing to the world! Quite clever really!
 


Eeyore

Eeyore

Colonel Hee-Haw of Queen's Park
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Apr 5, 2014
26,351
PeterT said:
I don’t disagree, although I’ve actually never been there myself.

But then you could say pretty much the same thing about every museum and art gallery in countless other nations too. I’m just wondering where this starts and stops.

I don’t know if we just get to hear about it more in this country because it involves us? It’s a bit like the Spanish claim on Gibraltar which goes back to the early 18th century and the Spanish Wars of Succession which seems to be in the news a lot. I was in Madrid at the weekend and I saw it on a scarf at the football, for example. But much later territorial ‘disputes’ like France getting Nice and Corsica from Italy in later peace treaties from the Napoleonic Wars (I haven’t double checked that, it’s from memory) never seem to come up any more. Edit: Corsica became part of France in 1768, Nice in 1860. Today we view those changes as permanent and beyond dispute, yet changes pre-dating both (Gibraltar) are considered up for grabs 320 years later!

We are probably seen as a soft touch these days, which may be true, especially since Brexit which lost us a lot of friends.
Click to expand...
In other news, and on the subject of extended world trips, I have been missing your splendid snaps of sporting jollies. I was rather expecting to see some pics from New Zealand.
 




PeterT

PeterT

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Apr 21, 2017
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Eeyore said:
In other news, and on the subject of extended world trips, I have been missing your splendid snaps of sporting jollies. I was rather expecting to see some pics from New Zealand.
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I actually disappeared from the site for a while, I didn’t like one or two posts that I saw on a couple of topics and decided to step back for a bit. I didn’t get to NZ but did go to loads of the Euros and the Olympics in the summer, Dublin for the England game, Real Madrid at the weekend ….. I’ll get back to posting pictures soon! Planning to go to the Lions tour in 2025 so look out for those if not some before then!
 


nicko31

nicko31

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Jan 7, 2010
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maffew said:
Anything stolen should be returned to its origin/original owner if they want it simple as that.
Thieves don't get to keep stuff they have nicked so other people can benefit from it, same difference
Click to expand...
The British museum whilst incredible has more stolen stuff than a car boot sale in Essex
 


oneillco

oneillco

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Feb 13, 2013
1,336
I 100% support returning the marbles to Greece; this could be an opportunity for the UK to actually gain an important allie inside the EU and show it has a moral backbone on the world-stage. Sensibly worded legislation could specify the circumstances in which culturally significant items will be returned to their place of origin and the circumstances in which they won't.
 




Sid and the Sharknados

Sid and the Sharknados

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PeterT said:
Yes, although that’s no accident. That museum is fairly newly built and they deliberately designed it that way to make a point and show the open wound of what was missing to the world! Quite clever really!
Click to expand...
"Fairly" is doing some heavy lifting there, the museum was there when I visited Athens in 2011. I suppose, compared to the Parthenon itself, that is recent. :lolol:

Its most important feature, to anybody visiting in summer at least, is that it has air conditioning. Thank God. It was 42c when I was there.
 


marcos3263

marcos3263

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2009
959
Fishersgate and Proud
Give them back. make plaster copies to keep in British Museum. Everyone happy.
With everything going on in the world this is a small good thing to do.
I don't think it will show Starmer as being weak.

I know it will lead to the Indians wanting the crown jewels back etc etc but you have to start somewhere.
 


Curious Orange

Curious Orange

Punxsatawney Phil
Jul 5, 2003
10,257
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Sid and the Sharknados said:
I think the Greeks would still be right to regard them as being stolen, even if the specific blame for that could be said to lie with the Turkish government of the time. And on that basis they're quite right to want them back.

If I came home from holiday and found somebody had knowingly bought all my furniture off a squatter I wouldn't shrug my shoulders and think "Well, that's fine. They paid for it so nothing wrong with that."
Click to expand...

A bit of context, Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire for about three hundred years.
 




PeterT

PeterT

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Apr 21, 2017
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oneillco said:
I 100% support returning the marbles to Greece; this could be an opportunity for the UK to actually gain an important allie inside the EU and show it has a moral backbone on the world-stage. Sensibly worded legislation could specify the circumstances in which culturally significant items will be returned to their place of origin and the circumstances in which they won't.
Click to expand...
The funny thing is that Greece probably has more territorial and cultural disputes with neighbouring countries than any other country in Europe - with Albania, Macedonia, Turkey/Cyprus for starters. It‘s why they still have military service in Greece. The Greeks value culture, identity, territory as highly as anyone so something as precious to them as this was always going to be an ongoing issue. I have several Greek colleagues and was discussing the very same thing with them today.

I have no problem at all in the marbles being returned if we can find a way of doing it that doesn’t just signal to the rest of the world that we are the bad guys, have done something terrible and it’s now open season on re-writing history and giving the Brits a good kicking. If we can gain an ally in the process, then all well and good. They still do like us there anyway, things like our help in WW2 and in how we handled Corfu becoming part of Greece amongst other things still give us some ticks in the right boxes.
 




Triggaaar

Triggaaar

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Oct 24, 2005
53,623
Goldstone
maffew said:
Anything stolen should be returned to its origin/original owner if they want it simple as that.
Click to expand...

Agreed. What about when things are bought / sold?
 








Curious Orange

Curious Orange

Punxsatawney Phil
Jul 5, 2003
10,257
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Sid and the Sharknados said:
I know, although I think it's closer to 400years (obviously depends on exactly which part of Greece you're considering).

Would you like to expand on this? Because I'm not sure what difference it makes to anything.
Click to expand...

I don't think it makes much difference to anything to do with the current situation in all honesty. It was more a reference to your 'squatters' comment, which, whilst highly amusing, also doesn't really have anything to do with the current situation, or the one when the marbles were removed - the Ottoman Empire having been around far longer than anyone could remember at that point.

Having seen the marbles fairly recently I can confirm that they are, in fact, quite dull. I do however think that 'just giving them back', is not an option, this needs to be an equitable transaction between the parties, after all a great deal of money has been spent to purchase and maintain these artefacts, so it is only right that there should be some compensation to secure a permanent return and transfer of ownership.
 


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