[Albion] Fabian Hurzeler: IN or OUT

Hometownglory · Tuesday at 12:21 PM

Oh_aye said:
One of the things I struggle with with Fab is that he doesn't really have a track record that allows you to put this season in perspective. One of the reasons why I think he'll be safe as houses with TB is that he was hired purely on potential. One season of success. Might have been a lucky anomaly or the start of a high profile career. I don't see nearly enough data from one single season that shows a trajectory that that potential manifestly can't be reached. If he loses every single game from here on in, someone might make the argument that he's lost the dressing room or out of his depth or something, but the likelihood is, we'll finish mid table. An underwhelming season for me given the potential but in the wider scheme of things broadly acceptable. I think TB and PB would really need to see more evidence before doing anything.

If his caveats are; young, potential, learning, 1st year in UK, lots of new players, injuries etc, then we'd need a season where most of those aren't true to be clearer on where he's going.

Not my emotional response really (I personally struggle to take to him and whatever his style of football is) but how I think the club will and probably should look at it.

To be honest, I reckon we were going all in on McKenna from the start, expecting he'd come considering the squad we have and the 200million investment. Fab could have been 3rd/4th choice for all we know.

Jimmy Grimble · Tuesday at 12:42 PM

jackalbion said:
I get this, but why has he regressed to a style which has not worked previously, again? I get that we've got to give him time, but he keeps on making the same mistakes, and to me it doesn't look like we are learning.

EDIT: Great Post btw, lots of fair points there, I don't agree with all of it, but I see the merit of all the points.

Because the style that worked required three key elements:

- Webster (or a centre back pairing that fed confidence into the rest of the team)
- Rutter
- Minteh doing an incredible job in a hybrid winger/wing back role.

Webster and Rutter are obviously unavailable and it was never sustainable to expect Minteh to consistently play at the level he was in that role.

The West Ham game presents FH with a potentially daunting (for him at least) prospect of trying something new. If he can find a new system that works, I think it’ll do a lot to shift opinion on him. If he sticks to the same stuff that clearly doesn’t work with the current available personnel, then I fear for him.

One Teddy Maybank · Tuesday at 12:48 PM

jackalbion said:
I was more referencing recruitment, I've mentioned it a few times this season (can't remember if it was on here, twitter or on a podcast) I've been pretty sceptical of whether we have made the right moves in the transfer window, or whether we've managed to build a functional squad.

But we seem to have almost adopted more of a ‘here are the tools’, develop the style approach in some respects.

If the style isn’t conducive to the players, a rethink is required.

Hiheidi · Tuesday at 1:06 PM

Hometownglory said:
To be honest, I reckon we were going all in on McKenna from the start expecting he'd come, especially with the squad we have the 200million investment in talent. Fab could have been 3rd/4th choice for all we know.

Someone said FH was 5th choice. I think the others were assumed to have included jindřich Trpišovský (since he publicly said he was approached) and Francesco Farioli (who was reported to have been interviewed). I hope if they are thinking about a new manager for next season, we can get in the first or second choice. Once you start slipping down the list too much, it might not be worth the change.

Jimmy Grimble · Tuesday at 1:29 PM

Hiheidi said:
Someone said FH was 5th choice. I think the others were assumed to have included jindřich Trpišovský (since he publicly said he was approached) and Francesco Farioli (who was reported to have been interviewed). I hope if they are thinking about a new manager for next season, we can get in the first or second choice. Once you start slipping down the list too much, it might not be worth the change.

If there is truth in FH being 4/5th choice, then I think it does somewhat increase the likelihood of a parting of ways in the summer, but only if there is a candidate that TB/PB have identified and are confident they can secure.

One of our transfer philosophies appears to be that we will sign players if they are available at the right time and at the right price, regardless of how stacked we may already be in that position.

In a hypothetical scenario where we finish the season poorly, and a manager who is #1 on TB/PB’s wanted list is willing to join us in the Summer, it could be possible that the philosophy may be extended beyond player signings.

Marshy · Tuesday at 1:39 PM

Im currently on the in camp.

I would be very concerned though if we went the final 5 games without a win.

I still think we can turn it around and get in Europe though. Stay positive, things change quickly.

Forster's Armband · Tuesday at 2:31 PM

Jimmy Grimble said:
Because the style that worked required three key elements:

- Webster (or a centre back pairing that fed confidence into the rest of the team)
- Rutter
- Minteh doing an incredible job in a hybrid winger/wing back role.

Webster and Rutter are obviously unavailable and it was never sustainable to expect Minteh to consistently play at the level he was in that role.

The West Ham game presents FH with a potentially daunting (for him at least) prospect of trying something new. If he can find a new system that works, I think it’ll do a lot to shift opinion on him. If he sticks to the same stuff that clearly doesn’t work with the current available personnel, then I fear for him.

Strangely, I think Joao Pedro's red helps FH. He can put O'Riely in the 10 role and secure the sitting positions with Baleba and Wieffer/Ayari. If JPvH is out just play Cashin or Simmonds. I honestly think O'Riely and Wieffer will be a massive part of our Midfield makeup next season (unpopular opinion I know) and they'll be very, very good.

As for Fab being a 3/4/5th choice...That is not how our lists work they have a list of coaches they would want and they appoint the one who either impressed the most or who is available. I do think we wanted McKenna but I am not sure he'd have done better than Fab. Infact I am fairly sure he would have matched him with the injuries and disruption...

Gwylan · Tuesday at 3:42 PM

Forster's Armband said:
As for Fab being a 3/4/5th choice...That is not how our lists work they have a list of coaches they would want and they appoint the one who either impressed the most or who is available. I do think we wanted McKenna but I am not sure he'd have done better than Fab. Infact I am fairly sure he would have matched him with the injuries and disruption...

I'm not sure I believe this stuff about him being 4th or 5th choice either. First of all, there'd be some whispers about who'd declined the job - we're pretty sure McKenna did, but even that's not definite, but no gossip about anyone else.

Second, I'd be surprised at someone turning us down. We're an attractive proposition: edge of European qualification, first class facilities, an excellent CEO and owner (and ones that are decidedly not trigger-happy), nice part of the world and close to London ... we'd have plenty of people wanting to join us. And we also aim for up and coming managers, not ones who have had many years in a top league, so they'd be expecting to massively increase salary.

McKenna turned us down, partly because he got a whopping great pay rise - can't see too many clubs wanting to do that.

Kalimantan Gull · Tuesday at 3:46 PM

jackalbion said:
I get this, but why has he regressed to a style which has not worked previously, again? I get that we've got to give him time, but he keeps on making the same mistakes, and to me it doesn't look like we are learning.

EDIT: Great Post btw, lots of fair points there, I don't agree with all of it, but I see the merit of all the points.

Well, I assume he has a way he wants to play, they work on it in training and then try and put it into practice. And perhaps he sees it largely working for 70% of the time before the opposition hoofs one over Hinshelwood or Wieffer filling in at full back, or Bart gifts them a goal, or Pedro gets sent off, or someone else gets injured, and it all looks shite, but we're a bit further along in developing the formation and tactics. So we go back to the training pitch, and keep working on it.

Rome wasnt built in a day.

I've said it before that RDZs greatest skill was instilling his style so quickly into our squad. But he had done that three or four times previously, he knew how to do it, and he was blessed with Lallana and Gross and Solly and Ally Mac, great footballing brains. For Fab is taking longer, and there are of course missteps on the way.

It is oft written in here that we are having a debate between those who think Fab is great and those who think he is useless. But we're not, the debate is actually between those who believe the manager needs time and those who think there's no point giving him that time.

Forster's Armband · Tuesday at 3:55 PM

Gwylan said:
I'm not sure I believe this stuff about him being 4th or 5th choice either. First of all, there'd be some whispers about who'd declined the job - we're pretty sure McKenna did, but even that's not definite, but no gossip about anyone else.

Second, I'd be surprised at someone turning us down. We're an attractive proposition: edge of European qualification, first class facilities, an excellent CEO and owner (and ones that are decidedly not trigger-happy), nice part of the world and close to London ... we'd have plenty of people wanting to join us. And we also aim for up and coming managers, not ones who have had many years in a top league, so they'd be expecting to massively increase salary.

McKenna turned us down, partly because he got a whopping great pay rise - can't see too many clubs wanting to do that.

Knowing Bloom and Barber I suspect they got a wiff he was going to say no and didn't even offer it to him in the end.

Stuart Munday · Tuesday at 3:56 PM

Gwylan said:
I'm not sure I believe this stuff about him being 4th or 5th choice either. First of all, there'd be some whispers about who'd declined the job - we're pretty sure McKenna did, but even that's not definite, but no gossip about anyone else.

Second, I'd be surprised at someone turning us down. We're an attractive proposition: edge of European qualification, first class facilities, an excellent CEO and owner (and ones that are decidedly not trigger-happy), nice part of the world and close to London ... we'd have plenty of people wanting to join us. And we also aim for up and coming managers, not ones who have had many years in a top league, so they'd be expecting to massively increase salary.

McKenna turned us down, partly because he got a whopping great pay rise - can't see too many clubs wanting to do that.

4 managers were spoken to, as to where they ranked, who knows.

jackalbion · Tuesday at 4:03 PM

Kalimantan Gull said:
Well, I assume he has a way he wants to play, they work on it in training and then try and put it into practice. And perhaps he sees it largely working for 70% of the time before the opposition hoofs one over Hinshelwood or Wieffer filling in at full back, or Bart gifts them a goal, or Pedro gets sent off, or someone else gets injured, and it all looks shite, but we're a bit further along in developing the formation and tactics. So we go back to the training pitch, and keep working on it.

Rome wasnt built in a day.

I've said it before that RDZs greatest skill was instilling his style so quickly into our squad. But he had done that three or four times previously, he knew how to do it, and he was blessed with Lallana and Gross and Solly and Ally Mac, great footballing brains. For Fab is taking longer, and there are of course missteps on the way.

It is oft written in here that we are having a debate between those who think Fab is great and those who think he is useless. But we're not, the debate is actually between those who believe the manager needs time and those who think there's no point giving him that time.

I agree definitely with your final two lines. However more my point is, that I think we have seen his style, and IMO it was good to watch for 6 games. We played a counter attacking style, which saw us win against some of the top sides, and were very unlucky not to hit double figures against Southampton. However over the last few games we've regressed again and slipping back into this possession style, which is just crap. It doesn't have the incisiveness of RDZ's passing game, but the physicality that he professes to bring is not there as well. I just don't see why we have reverted to this style which coincided with our worst form. The main components of the counter attacking system are still playable with the players we have IMO, he just doesn't seem to be able to do it. We need to get back to basics (which we did during the six game run) and we just seem to be trying this sort of hybrid possession game again and again and again, and I'm not sure if he thinks its going to click one day, but it just doesn't seem to be. I'm just seeing the same signs I saw in December, and I just feel like we've gone round a cycle again. If we give him time, is he just going to revert to another barren spell.

Hiheidi · Tuesday at 4:08 PM

Gwylan said:
I'm not sure I believe this stuff about him being 4th or 5th choice either. First of all, there'd be some whispers about who'd declined the job - we're pretty sure McKenna did, but even that's not definite, but no gossip about anyone else.

Second, I'd be surprised at someone turning us down. We're an attractive proposition: edge of European qualification, first class facilities, an excellent CEO and owner (and ones that are decidedly not trigger-happy), nice part of the world and close to London ... we'd have plenty of people wanting to join us. And we also aim for up and coming managers, not ones who have had many years in a top league, so they'd be expecting to massively increase salary.

McKenna turned us down, partly because he got a whopping great pay rise - can't see too many clubs wanting to do that.

Who knows, but.....
Andy Naylor and Alex Crook (whom the club often use to put out news) both reported McKenna was at the top of our list.
Naylor also wrote a piece about Potter returning (maybe to test the water?). A couple of days later - after a pretty unwelcome reaction on social media at least - Potter ruled himself out.
Also, during our search, Farioli stayed overnight in Sussex with his wife and agent. Lots of rumours he was spoken to, but he had also been approached by Ajax prior to this, so possibly trying to keep his visit quiet?
Jindřich Trpišovský publicly said he'd been approached but turned us down.
There were other names mentioned/rumours - I'm sure someone on here even said Steve Cooper was seen in Lancing

Onto your second point - why would people turn us down? We'd been very clear publicly that the manager doesn't have much input in transfers. RDZ had been publicly moaning about our transfer policy for at least half a year prior. The previous Summer we'd sold two world class players and replaced them with two free transfers, and went into our first ever season in Europe with what Danny Welbeck described as a "thin squad". Media were blaming the downturn in results on the Manager and his reputation was suffering. Maybe that put a few people off!

Clive Walker · Tuesday at 4:13 PM

took us an age to recruit last time. Im pretty sure FH was 4th or 5th on the list.

jackalbion · Tuesday at 4:25 PM

Clive Walker said:
took us an age to recruit last time. Im pretty sure FH was 4th or 5th on the list.

From what I can gather, from articles

The list, in no particular order, is:

Jindřich Trpišovský
Kieran McKenna
Gasperini
Pimienta

Then from speculation:

Potter
Cooper

Hiheidi · Tuesday at 4:29 PM

Clive Walker said:
took us an age to recruit last time. Im pretty sure FH was 4th or 5th on the list.

Barber's big thing is talking about succession planning and he's often said that other clubs part with a Manager and don't know who they will get in whereas we are the opposite. But I think we weren't prepared for how it would all play out in the Summer with lots of Managerial changes in the PL / Europe.

Pretty sure McKenna was our succession plan (Alex Crook who appears to be Barber's mouthpiece) reported that McKenna was the standout candidate and things "could accelerate quickly" just a couple of hours after RDZ leaving was announced. I assume we were so confident (presumably because he and Barber had worked together in the past), we hadn't mapped out what would happen if he said no.

As someone suggested, Hürzeler is likely someone we had on the radar for the future, but there weren't many options left and we possibly brought him in sooner than we'd like. The question is, do they wait for him to be ready and is there someone else available who'd want the job and be a better fit straight away?

Clive Walker · Tuesday at 4:36 PM

Hiheidi said:
Barber's big thing is talking about succession planning and he's often said that other clubs part with a Manager and don't know who they will get in whereas we are the opposite. But I think we weren't prepared for how it would all play out in the Summer with lots of Managerial changes in the PL / Europe.

Pretty sure McKenna was our succession plan (Alex Crook who appears to be Barber's mouthpiece) reported that McKenna was the standout candidate and things "could accelerate quickly" just a couple of hours after RDZ leaving was announced. I assume we were so confident (presumably because he and Barber had worked together in the past), we hadn't mapped out what would happen if he said no.

As someone suggested, Hürzeler is likely someone we had on the radar for the future, but there weren't many options left and we possibly brought him in sooner than we'd like. The question is, do they wait for him to be ready and is there someone else available who'd want the job and be a better fit straight away?

Correct from what I know.

The Fits · Tuesday at 4:48 PM

Hiheidi said:
Barber's big thing is talking about succession planning and he's often said that other clubs part with a Manager and don't know who they will get in whereas we are the opposite. But I think we weren't prepared for how it would all play out in the Summer with lots of Managerial changes in the PL / Europe.

Pretty sure McKenna was our succession plan (Alex Crook who appears to be Barber's mouthpiece) reported that McKenna was the standout candidate and things "could accelerate quickly" just a couple of hours after RDZ leaving was announced. I assume we were so confident (presumably because he and Barber had worked together in the past), we hadn't mapped out what would happen if he said no.

As someone suggested, Hürzeler is likely someone we had on the radar for the future, but there weren't many options left and we possibly brought him in sooner than we'd like. The question is, do they wait for him to be ready and is there someone else available who'd want the job and be a better fit straight away?

Exactly. It’s quite clear Fab was someone we knew about and liked but I’m fairly sure we’d have thought it a bit soon for him- it was bold even for us.
If you think about managers we simply couldn’t afford or remove from their contract, then managers who didn’t even want an interview, then managers who interviewed but had other options, realistically he was probably nowhere near even top 5.

birthofanorange · Tuesday at 4:59 PM

Just like all of us on NSC, Brighton fans everywhere, the players, the club...everyone...wants us to have a last big push and win at least 3 of our final games and pick up a point from one (or both) of the the other 2.
However, should we lose to West Ham, I still won't think that Fab's time is over. I very much doubt that TB would think so either, as there's still four matches remaining.
Five losses, however, could tip the balance, although I would not be at all surprised if he was still given next season to put things right.
I'm fine with that. *

*Not the five losses, obviously.

One Teddy Maybank · Tuesday at 5:01 PM

Kalimantan Gull said:
Well, I assume he has a way he wants to play, they work on it in training and then try and put it into practice. And perhaps he sees it largely working for 70% of the time before the opposition hoofs one over Hinshelwood or Wieffer filling in at full back, or Bart gifts them a goal, or Pedro gets sent off, or someone else gets injured, and it all looks shite, but we're a bit further along in developing the formation and tactics. So we go back to the training pitch, and keep working on it.

Rome wasnt built in a day.

I've said it before that RDZs greatest skill was instilling his style so quickly into our squad. But he had done that three or four times previously, he knew how to do it, and he was blessed with Lallana and Gross and Solly and Ally Mac, great footballing brains. For Fab is taking longer, and there are of course missteps on the way.

It is oft written in here that we are having a debate between those who think Fab is great and those who think he is useless. But we're not, the debate is actually between those who believe the manager needs time and those who think there's no point giving him that time.

Or alternatively cutting your losses because you can’t see it going anywhere….

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