[Albion] Fab OUT

[Justice]

2-1 down 55 mins
63 mins brings on Pedro for O’Reily, Adingra for Mitoma who was clearly tiring.
72 mins March for Minteh, Gruda for Gomez. Then Weiffer for Hinch in injury time. We didn’t concede a goal in that time - but needed one and you’re complaining about bringing on too many attackers. Maybe he should have shut up shop and hope to hit them on the break? Baffling.

Did it work? No because we lost our shape completely I would actually argue our best player was O’Riely yesterday he went off and we looked clueless.
Wharton was getting plaudits yesterday because he wasn’t getting pressed and had ridiculous amounts of time and space Hurzeler had Baleba chasing Eze around all game.
With no shape we aren’t going to create anything which was exactly what happened.
Liverpool today kept their shape despite changes and were unlucky not to get back in the game as the chances kept coming.
I don’t want a panicked manager making rash changes with 20 minutes to go achieving nothing which exactly what happened in the last two games.

 

[pigmanovich]

I think generally we have the most PL ready squad we have ever had.
When we sign a player for 20 million plus we arent doing with a long term run up of development in mind. They are signed with the expectation that they can get up to speed fairly quickly. And we have a fair few of them.

I’d say we had a better, more PL ready squad in 2022/23. That said I’m not knocking the current squad per se - just questioning the narrative that Fabian has an embarrassment of riches to work with when in reality he’s been put in quite a challenging position having to not only adapt to English football himself but also help a bunch of new young signings do the same.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Did it work? No because we lost our shape completely I would actually argue our best player was O’Riely yesterday he went off and we looked clueless.
Wharton was getting plaudits yesterday because he wasn’t getting pressed and had ridiculous amounts of time and space Hurzeler had Baleba chasing Eze around all game.
With no shape we aren’t going to create anything which was exactly what happened.
Liverpool today kept their shape despite changes and were unlucky not to get back in the game as the chances kept coming.
I don’t want a panicked manager making rash changes with 20 minutes to go achieving nothing which exactly what happened in the last two games.

Liverpool who just conceded 3 against a team we recently beat. Okay Sherlock.

 

[Machiavelli]

Couple of points to add here.
Most of our key players have actually been relatively injury free this season - Pedro, Bart, Mitoma, JPVH, pervis, Baleba, Rutter, Welbeck has been more available than other seasons.
And If Milner hadnt been given a new contract it would bring our injured days tally down a decent chunk.
So it is simply not true to say Fab has worked wonders. If the squad is so threadbare why allow Enciso and Ferguson - established players both - to go on loan? to get minutes I hear you say………exactly.
He has had resources many managers would dream of. And he’s done…. an Ok job.

I was responding to your point about injuries, which was odd -- especially since you claimed what entitled fans bang on about on messageboards is more important than facts.
We have quite comfortably lost the most minutes to injuries this season. The players that have been available isn't going to effect that solid stat.
He might have had the resources Kieran McKenna could dream of (although McKenna had the chance to fulfil that dream, and the fool turned it down). He doesn't have the resources that Pep, BeHeadie or Unai Emery could dream of -- all of whom are just ahead of Mr 'OK job' -- nor the likes of Ruben Amorim, Erik Ten Hag, Ange or Graham Potter -- all of whom aren't doing as well as Mr 'OK job'.
PS, I haven't said that FH has worked wonders.

 

[BadFish]

If you get the plaudits when you win 6 on the spin, you'll get shit when you lose 3 in a week. Nature of the beast, isn't it?

By any measure it's been an absolute, stinking TURD of a week. Fab needs to do better.

Maybe the key is to not get so over the top with plaudits when we win 6 on the spin. Then we don't have to give so much shit when it goes a bit wrong.

Ultimately we are sitting just above the par most of us called at the beginning of the season. On the current evidence Fab is not the Messiah some are claiming, and he's not the tactically inept dullard others also claim. He is doing alright in his first season (with lots of injuries) and we have a good platform to build on.

Just before the cup game my mate sent me the guardian article about us and Fab. My immediate reaction was that this was all too soon and it didn't bode well. Obviously I am not blaming an article for our recent form but, as they say in Australia, we need to keep a lid on in.

 

[BadFish]

In fairness, the “rate our signings” threads at the start of the season are always a blast. You inevitably have the “it’s a 10/10 window” group who think everything is shiny, even when the more pragmatic amongst us sit here and say that we’ve still not improved the areas of weakness, for the 3rd season running…

Which is all fine and dandy, but you can’t bring in a manager who wants to play on the half way line and expect them to get great results against low block sides if you don’t bring in those players to fit the system.

We’ve all seen how Spurs, who play in a similar manner to us, have got on this season when they’ve had their speed merchant CBs out for months.

The problem is, and this is where is comes back to the manager, you do need someone’s who’s pragmatic enough to adapt his tactics to the players available. And whether it’s inexperience or pig headedness, outside of a small window of games post-Forest, FH just hasn’t done that.

He has done it, it just hasn't worked as well as we would like. It seemed clear at the beginning of the season that he wants to play a very high line, then Chelsea happened, then he changed it.

Perhaps with the addition of some pace into our defence we will see the tactics he wants to play and we will see an improvement. How exciting is that though?

 

[BadFish]

Core team slowly but surely being weakened. Infrastructure slowly but surely being strengthened.
Rejoice! Rejoice!

What are your predictions for the next 3 or 4 seasons?

 

[Milano]

He has done it, it just hasn't worked as well as we would like. It seemed clear at the beginning of the season that he wants to play a very high line, then Chelsea happened, then he changed it.

Perhaps with the addition of some pace into our defence we will see the tactics he wants to play and we will see an improvement. How exciting is that though?

I was very surprised to see Jack bombing that far forward at 1-1 away from home v your biggest rivals, why? Compounded with no one dropping in for him. f***ing basic stuff.
That’s either a young player going off piste (doubt it) or being told he can/should do that by his manager.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

What are your predictions for the next 3 or 4 seasons?

More of the same

 

[BadFish]

More of the same

Top ten finishes with the occasional cup run and foray in Europe?

I can live with that.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

Not for me Clive.

I have my reservations about FH but wanting him sacked is both silly and unrealistic(at least during the season).

It is undeniable fact that we've had the worst injury problem in the league. However I feel that he hasn't got the best out of the players anywhere near enough, regardless of who's been available or not.

For me I'd rate him as a 6 out of 10 at the moment. The question is how much room/capacity for improvement does he have? His record in relation to his relative inexperience coupled with coming to a new league and the injuries are good enough reasons to hope that there's a lot more to come.

It's just bloody frustrating when you get results/performances like Saturday and you watch the potential for an incredible season being squandered.

 

[JetsetJimbo]

The question is how much room/capacity for improvement does he have? His record in relation to his relative inexperience coupled with coming to a new league and the injuries are good enough reasons to hope that there's a lot more to come.

This really is the question. You've got to assume that he was appointed with "capacity for improvement" in mind, and the winning run after the 7-0 loss against Forest suggests he does have that capacity.

But tbh I've not really enjoyed watching us this season. I just haven't found the football as compelling as it was under RDZ. I'm a "TV fan" by virtue of living overseas, so my perspective might not be as good as those of you who actually go to the games each week (though this does mean I see every single league game we play). But our games are no longer something I plan my day around watching; I find myself scrolling on my phone during games, whereas I was usually absolutely transfixed by our football under RDZ. Yes, even the heavy defeats, because I understood what the team was trying to do. Now, I often don't, and it looks like the players often aren't sure either.

On the other hand, though, there's all the injuries and the huge number of new players to integrate. And the same issue that late-era RDZ had in that Caicedo and Mac Allister were nigh-on impossible to replace; and unlike RDZ, FH has no Pascal Gross to keep things ticking over without them.

I think he's probably done well enough in Bloom and Barber's view to "earn" another season, barring an absolute stinking run from here on. I suspect "top-half finish and a decent cup run" was probably the target at the start of the season and he's on course to meet that.

 

[dazzer6666]

Maybe the key is to not get so over the top with plaudits when we win 6 on the spin. Then we don't have to give so much shit when it goes a bit wrong.

Ultimately we are sitting just above the par most of us called at the beginning of the season. On the current evidence Fab is not the Messiah some are claiming, and he's not the tactically inept dullard others also claim. He is doing alright in his first season (with lots of injuries) and we have a good platform to build on.

Just before the cup game my mate sent me the guardian article about us and Fab. My immediate reaction was that this was all too soon and it didn't bode well. Obviously I am not blaming an article for our recent form but, as they say in Australia, we need to keep a lid on in.

This is not the place for reasonable, level-headed objective assessment. We’ve had a long run of tight games….we won some we could have drawn/lost, and drawn/lost some we could have won. It’s football……in a competitive division……

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

This really is the question. You've got to assume that he was appointed with "capacity for improvement" in mind, and the winning run after the 7-0 loss against Forest suggests he does have that capacity.

But tbh I've not really enjoyed watching us this season. I just haven't found the football as compelling as it was under RDZ. I'm a "TV fan" by virtue of living overseas, so my perspective might not be as good as those of you who actually go to the games each week (though this does mean I see every single league game we play). But our games are no longer something I plan my day around watching; I find myself scrolling on my phone during games, whereas I was usually absolutely transfixed by our football under RDZ. Yes, even the heavy defeats, because I understood what the team was trying to do. Now, I often don't, and it looks like the players often aren't sure either.

On the other hand, though, there's all the injuries and the huge number of new players to integrate. And the same issue that late-era RDZ had in that Caicedo and Mac Allister were nigh-on impossible to replace; and unlike RDZ, FH has no Pascal Gross to keep things ticking over without them.

I think he's probably done well enough in Bloom and Barber's view to "earn" another season, barring an absolute stinking run from here on. I suspect "top-half finish and a decent cup run" was probably the target at the start of the season and he's on course to meet that.

We're very similar in our outlook it seems.

I also live overseas so get to watch all the games but miss out on the live bigger picture which definitely could be informing some of my views. Likewise I find FH's style not as interesting/captivating/exciting as RDZ's and often struggle to see what he's trying to do.

I don't think his job is under any threat though. It'll only become an issue if we spend next season under performing in the eyes of TB/those that count.

 

[DJ NOBO]

Not for me Clive.

I have my reservations about FH but wanting him sacked is both silly and unrealistic(at least during the season).

It is undeniable fact that we've had the worst injury problem in the league. However I feel that he hasn't got the best out of the players anywhere near enough, regardless of who's been available or not.

For me I'd rate him as a 6 out of 10 at the moment. The question is how much room/capacity for improvement does he have? His record in relation to his relative inexperience coupled with coming to a new league and the injuries are good enough reasons to hope that there's a lot more to come.

It's just bloody frustrating when you get results/performances like Saturday and you watch the potential for an incredible season being squandered.

It is deniable.
It depends on how you judge what is the worst injury problem in the league.
In terms of days out injured we top the list, sure. But in terms of availability of our strongest players we have been very very lucky.
Look at Forest - if they lose Chris Wood for two months and that’s their only injury, the number of squad injury days is very small but the impact on their team is large.
Our total injury days squad figure is probably bloated by Milner alone, who wasnt getting in the first team anyway.
Essentially if Milner was released in the summer, the extreme injury excuse is significantly diminished.
Everything else you say I agree with. Reservations about Fab but based on our league position, he has definitely done enough to keep his job.

 

[Han Solo]

It is deniable.
It depends on how you judge what is the worst injury problem in the league.
In terms of days out injured we top the list, sure. But in terms of availability of our strongest players we have been very very lucky.
Look at Forest - if they lose Chris Wood for two months and that’s their own only injury, the number of squad injury days is very small but the impact on their team is large.
Our total injury days squad figure is probably bloated by Milner alone, who wasnt getting in the first team anyway.
Essentially if Milner was released in the summer, the extreme injury excuse isn’t there.
Everything else you say I agree with. He has definitely done enough to keep his job.

Milner was a starter before his injury.

Agree he kind of inflates some numbers though.

 

[The Grockle]

I really hate these threads, reminds me of the live streaming idiot chelsea fans screamingly like a child who's been told they can't have a toy from Tesco.

 

[dazzer6666]

It is deniable.
It depends on how you judge what is the worst injury problem in the league.
In terms of days out injured we top the list, sure. But in terms of availability of our strongest players we have been very very lucky.
Look at Forest - if they lose Chris Wood for two months and that’s their only injury, the number of squad injury days is very small but the impact on their team is large.
Our total injury days squad figure is probably bloated by Milner alone, who wasnt getting in the first team anyway.
Essentially if Milner was released in the summer, the extreme injury excuse is significantly diminished.
Everything else you say I agree with. Reservations about Fab but based on our league position, he has definitely done enough to keep his job.

Yep. Very, very lucky a key defender we signed has hardly played and our back-up LB/LCB has been out for months, an attacking midfielder we signed was crocked after 5 mins (and then had another injury), a defensive midfielder we signed has had a couple of lengthy injuries and missed the majority of the season, our academy wonderkid missed several weeks, our best RB has missed loads of key games and our back-up RB is out, our back-up/cup goalie has had to have an operation and missed several months………etc

Lucky, lucky us eh

 

[DJ NOBO]

Yep. Very, very lucky a key defender we signed has hardly played and our back-up LB/LCB has been out for months, an attacking midfielder we signed was crocked after 5 mins (and then had another injury), a defensive midfielder we signed has had a couple of lengthy injuries and missed the majority of the season, our academy wonderkid missed several weeks, our best RB has missed loads of key games and our back-up RB is out, our back-up/cup goalie has had to have an operation and missed several months………etc

Lucky, lucky us eh

Name the seven players at the start of the season you would have wanted to stay fit?
I’m guessing it’s not far from
Baleba
Mitoma
JPVH
Welbeck
Rutter
Minteh
Pervis*
All available for 28 games or more.
Incredibly lucky on that score.
Mitoma, Baleba and JPVH alone. IMO our three top players.

As for the list you give - yep, a sorry tale. But you will find comparable tales of woe at other clubs. Ask a Spurs fan.


*Edit : I forgot Bart!

 

[Gabbiano]

Name the seven players at the start of the season you would have wanted to stay fit?
I’m guessing it’s not far from
Baleba
Mitoma
JPVH
Welbeck
Rutter
Minteh
Pervis
All available for 28 games or more.
Incredibly lucky on that score.
Mitoma, Baleba and JPVH alone. IMO our three top players.

As for the list you give - yep, a sorry tale. But you will find comparable tales of woe at other clubs. Ask a Spurs fan.

This is sort of a confirmation bias. The likes of Kadioglu and Wieffer could have proved themselves as central "undroppable" cogs in the machine had they not been injured, just as you have described Rutter and Minteh.

I suppose it's all by the by anyway. We purposely bought a lot of depth in order to be able to cope with injuries. This is why we are in mid table and not where Tottenham are, we've been able to cope pretty well with the injuries, following last year's debacle.

The biggest issue is not enough of that depth is in defence.