[Albion] Fab OUT

[Brian Fantana]

This really is the question. You've got to assume that he was appointed with "capacity for improvement" in mind, and the winning run after the 7-0 loss against Forest suggests he does have that capacity.

But tbh I've not really enjoyed watching us this season. I just haven't found the football as compelling as it was under RDZ. I'm a "TV fan" by virtue of living overseas, so my perspective might not be as good as those of you who actually go to the games each week (though this does mean I see every single league game we play). But our games are no longer something I plan my day around watching; I find myself scrolling on my phone during games, whereas I was usually absolutely transfixed by our football under RDZ. Yes, even the heavy defeats, because I understood what the team was trying to do. Now, I often don't, and it looks like the players often aren't sure either.

On the other hand, though, there's all the injuries and the huge number of new players to integrate. And the same issue that late-era RDZ had in that Caicedo and Mac Allister were nigh-on impossible to replace; and unlike RDZ, FH has no Pascal Gross to keep things ticking over without them.

I think he's probably done well enough in Bloom and Barber's view to "earn" another season, barring an absolute stinking run from here on. I suspect "top-half finish and a decent cup run" was probably the target at the start of the season and he's on course to meet that.

This exactly where I am too, especially the highlighted section.

 

[DJ NOBO]

This is sort of a confirmation bias. The likes of Kadioglu and Wieffer could have proved themselves as central "undroppable" cogs in the machine had they not been injured, just as you have described Rutter and Minteh.

I suppose it's all by the by anyway. We purposely bought a lot of depth in order to be able to cope with injuries. This is why we are in mid table and not where Tottenham are, we've been able to cope pretty well with the injuries, following last year's debacle.

The biggest issue is not enough of that depth is in defence.

My point was countering the widely held view we have been exceptionally unlucky with injuries ( that view being based on total number of injury days data).
The injury days data doesn’t tell the whole story. And your conformation bias point doesn’t stack up for the top six players who have remained largely injury free (Baleba, Mitoma, JPVH, Pedro, Bart, Welbeck - I’ll generously concede you our record transfer Rutter and £30m Minteh!).
I can’t see any realistic scenario when these players wouldn’t have been key factors in our season. Their availability has been massive good fortune for Fab - or maybe you think otherwise?

 

[Eric Youngs Contact Lens]

This is not the place for reasonable, level-headed objective assessment. We’ve had a long run of tight games….we won some we could have drawn/lost, and drawn/lost some we could have won. It’s football……in a competitive division……

This.. If we mixed the results up, 3 losses, over a 9/10 game period, that feels about right, and the ones we have lost (I am counting Forest, albeit the match itself was a draw let's remember) are hardly against "no-hopers" : whatever we like to think, Palace are the in-form team right now, Forest have had their best season in a generation and Villa are right up there.. On the flip side we have beaten Chelsea, Fulham, Newcastle and Bournemouth, drawn with City.

And I don't want to ignore the manner of the defeats.. in each game we have lost, we had good spells, didn't take chances, and vice versa for the opposition. The games we won, could easily have been defeats or draws, and the ones we lost could easily have been draws or wins..

Its been a horrible week, and, if this is the start of a 6/7 game losing streak, that's a different context. I too have queried some of FH decisions (see the Cashin Thread!!!) and timing of subs.. However, Saturday within the match situation and player re-hab, the subs felt reasonable (I did not think the same vs. Villa) but the game became chaotic as we faced a team that was going to defend 18 yard box with 9 players and we ran out of ideas..

saturday will be "interesting". Low confidence and an anxious/angry Amex, it might be a bit of a mare!!

 

[SeagullsoverLondon]

This.. If we mixed the results up, 3 losses, over a 9/10 game period, that feels about right, and the ones we have lost (I am counting Forest, albeit the match itself was a draw let's remember) are hardly against "no-hopers" : whatever we like to think, Palace are the in-form team right now, Forest have had their best season in a generation and Villa are right up there.. On the flip side we have beaten Chelsea, Fulham, Newcastle and Bournemouth, drawn with City.

And I don't want to ignore the manner of the defeats.. in each game we have lost, we had good spells, didn't take chances, and vice versa for the opposition. The games we won, could easily have been defeats or draws, and the ones we lost could easily have been draws or wins..

Its been a horrible week, and, if this is the start of a 6/7 game losing streak, that's a different context. I too have queried some of FH decisions (see the Cashin Thread!!!) and timing of subs.. However, Saturday within the match situation and player re-hab, the subs felt reasonable (I did not think the same vs. Villa) but the game became chaotic as we faced a team that was going to defend 18 yard box with 9 players and we ran out of ideas..

saturday will be "interesting". Low confidence and an anxious/angry Amex, it might be a bit of a mare!!

I think a very sensible and level headed assessment.
The other point it's worth making is that (with all due respect to Southampton) there are very few easy games in the Premier League anymore for any team (see Fulham v Liverpool)
The fact that Man U and Spurs are 13th and 14th suggests that the mid ranking sides (including us) are all capable of beating each other and most games swing on fine margins.
E.g Villa would have been different if the two VAR calls had gone the other way.

What we need is some luck to see us through these last 7 games, which are all winnable.
Hopefully the Palace game is another watershed moment like Forest away and that Leicester on Saturday will act as the same confidence boost that the Chelsea cup game provided.

 

[Milano]

This.. If we mixed the results up, 3 losses, over a 9/10 game period, that feels about right, and the ones we have lost (I am counting Forest, albeit the match itself was a draw let's remember) are hardly against "no-hopers" : whatever we like to think, Palace are the in-form team right now, Forest have had their best season in a generation and Villa are right up there.. On the flip side we have beaten Chelsea, Fulham, Newcastle and Bournemouth, drawn with City.

And I don't want to ignore the manner of the defeats.. in each game we have lost, we had good spells, didn't take chances, and vice versa for the opposition. The games we won, could easily have been defeats or draws, and the ones we lost could easily have been draws or wins..

Its been a horrible week, and, if this is the start of a 6/7 game losing streak, that's a different context. I too have queried some of FH decisions (see the Cashin Thread!!!) and timing of subs.. However, Saturday within the match situation and player re-hab, the subs felt reasonable (I did not think the same vs. Villa) but the game became chaotic as we faced a team that was going to defend 18 yard box with 9 players and we ran out of ideas..

saturday will be "interesting". Low confidence and an anxious/angry Amex, it might be a bit of a mare!!

Good post.
We could (perhaps even should) have nicked an equaliser with the last kick on Saturday and then the mood here would be somewhat different.
Although the word I picked up on in your reply was 'chaotic' and that does worry me a bit. In the last 2 games I think that has been the effect our subs have had on our play. In both games we have lost our shape and any style, the subs have made us worse.

 

[Doug-ees-evil]

This really is the question. You've got to assume that he was appointed with "capacity for improvement" in mind, and the winning run after the 7-0 loss against Forest suggests he does have that capacity.

But tbh I've not really enjoyed watching us this season. I just haven't found the football as compelling as it was under RDZ. I'm a "TV fan" by virtue of living overseas, so my perspective might not be as good as those of you who actually go to the games each week (though this does mean I see every single league game we play). But our games are no longer something I plan my day around watching; I find myself scrolling on my phone during games, whereas I was usually absolutely transfixed by our football under RDZ. Yes, even the heavy defeats, because I understood what the team was trying to do. Now, I often don't, and it looks like the players often aren't sure either.

On the other hand, though, there's all the injuries and the huge number of new players to integrate. And the same issue that late-era RDZ had in that Caicedo and Mac Allister were nigh-on impossible to replace; and unlike RDZ, FH has no Pascal Gross to keep things ticking over without them.

I think he's probably done well enough in Bloom and Barber's view to "earn" another season, barring an absolute stinking run from here on. I suspect "top-half finish and a decent cup run" was probably the target at the start of the season and he's on course to meet that.

It's not been particularly different in the stadiums either to be honest. A strange, transitional season. I attend about 95% of all home games and have done about 10 away so far this season. There's been moments of real engagement and excitement and genuine feelings of here we go... another Euro tour maybe? Some of the results have been quite superb. The recent Bournemouth home game I thought we had cracked it... a complete performance and the eight game unbeaten run was of course terrific.

But there have probably been more occasions where it is really difficult to discern a pattern/style of play or any clear direction of where we heading – and it's certainly not as exciting or convincing on the whole (so far). I've left many a game thinking the players don't look particularly motivated or know what is being asked of them. Too many games where we look great/dangerous for about 20 minutes, then disappear for the rest. Too many baffling substitions and odd line-ups. And of course injuries have not helped – but I agree with other posters, our key players have been available all season (God knows where we'd be if JP had been out for months).

I've fallen in and out of love with it all over several cycles this year. I even stuck my ticket on the exchange for the home Palace and Everton games (what a stroke of luck that was), not because I couldn't make it, but because I simply stopped enjoying it and I felt zero regret in doing so. I don't think I've ever done that or felt that way in the Amex era of being a ST holder.

I think it's a natural combination of post-Euro campaign / RdZ era 'come-down' and the first season for an incredibly, young, inexperienced manager – having to get to used to a new country, thre most competitive league in the world and trying to gel a load of new players together. He's got a lot of things right and a quite a few things wrong. If he delivers a 10th place finish and an FA Cup Quarter Final – then sensibly, that is an excellent first season. Only a loon would chop the manager out now or in the summer for delivering the clubs's 3rd highest finish of all time (in his debut season). It all comes down to.. can FH/BHA progress and build next year and I think, all things considered, he fully deserves that second season and some patience.

I would say we need to be careful though in the balance and mix of our recruitment and that is on the club – not FH. We need a few more Veltmans (fighters who care) and I worry if we lose JP or Pedro for example, as they fall into that category. Losing Gross has left the hole we thought it would and so we need some more really smart and experienced players too. I was saying to my son yesterday about the ticking time bomb of Dunk waning/retiring, Welbeck naturally coming to the end of his remarkable career, and then if you add in the loss of potentially JP/Pedro as sales and say Veltman retiring – and you look around the squad and think.. where are the leaders, the characters, the fighters and mentors? If we gloss over and don't address that, then we could find ourselves in a sticky situation in a year or two. I hope the recruitment team are on it.

 

[ukpolska]

Sometimes our supporters can be so toxic with Eiran Cashin having to shut down his Instagram comments after his debut the other week due to a load of abuse from our supporters.
Now we have the bedwetters calling for Fabian Hürzeler to be sacked.
I have been a Brighton supporter for 54 years and have NEVER seen so much success that I am seeing for the club in all those years.
I have seen the worst of times and the best of times, but I have always remained faithful to the club and NEVER insulted nor criticised a single player in all those years because I believe in the club's motto: STAND OR FALL'.
I know there is disappointment out there, but Brighton are still a contender for European football next season, and it may not be Champions League, but people need to be realistic.
Expectations will always breed disappointment because a lot of those expectations are unrealistic.

 

[Justice]

Sometimes our supporters can be so toxic with Eiran Cashin having to shut down his Instagram comments after his debut the other week due to a load of abuse from our supporters.
Now we have the bedwetters calling for Fabian Hürzeler to be sacked.
I have been a Brighton supporter for 54 years and have NEVER seen so much success that I am seeing for the club in all those years.
I have seen the worst of times and the best of times, but I have always remained faithful to the club and NEVER insulted nor criticised a single player in all those years because I believe in the club's motto: STAND OR FALL'.
I know there is disappointment out there, but Brighton are still a contender for European football next season, and it may not be Champions League, but people need to be realistic.
Expectations will always breed disappointment because a lot of those expectations are unrealistic.

Not according to our owner he has high expectations this season.

 

[jackalbion]

This could be our first season of mid-table mediocrity, without a european tour, and that's fine, IMO there's more to come from Fab. If he's backed again in the summer, and we are still mediocre, then I think its worth a bounce of this thread. He needs to get more out of some of the players, and in all honesty a few of the signings we need to get a lot more out of. I'm happy with whatever for the rest of the season, but I want to see us challenge the establishment next season, seriously challenge it, if he's going to keep on saying it.

 

[ukpolska]

Not according to our owner he has high expectations this season.

Would you care to provide a link or evidence to that

 

[jackalbion]

I would say we need to be careful though in the balance and mix of our recruitment and that is on the club – not FH. We need a few more Veltmans (fighters who care) and I worry if we lose JP or Pedro for example, as they fall into that category. Losing Gross has left the hole we thought it would and so we need some more really smart and experienced players too. I was saying to my son yesterday about the ticking time bomb of Dunk waning/retiring, Welbeck naturally coming to the end of his remarkable career, and then if you add in the loss of potentially JP/Pedro as sales and say Veltman retiring – and you look around the squad and think.. where are the leaders, the characters, the fighters and mentors? If we gloss over and don't address that, then we could find ourselves in a sticky situation in a year or two. I hope the recruitment team are on it.

I think your last paragraph is what I agree with the most, there is definitely a couple of other issues at the moment, that won't be solved with sacking the manager. The recruitment team has done fantastically over the last 10 or so years, barring a couple of odd deals here and there, but it does seem that sometimes, we are being outbid by other clubs. Bigger clubs are cottoning onto our strategy and it doesn't seem the secret it used to be Some of the attempts to replace quality as well are lacking a bit (Gross the huge one). We've been on a crest of a wave since 2010 really (barring 2014/15), and we are reaching possibly a stagnation point, we wouldn't be the first team to hit this wall (Stoke, West Brom, Burnley, Fulham), I have all the faith that the club can overcome and vault this wall, but its a very interesting crossroads.

 

[Doug-ees-evil]

I think your last paragraph is what I agree with the most, there is definitely a couple of other issues at the moment, that won't be solved with sacking the manager. The recruitment team has done fantastically over the last 10 or so years, barring a couple of odd deals here and there, but it does seem that sometimes, we are being outbid by other clubs. Bigger clubs are cottoning onto our strategy and it doesn't seem the secret it used to be Some of the attempts to replace quality as well are lacking a bit (Gross the huge one). We've been on a crest of a wave since 2010 really (barring 2014/15), and we are reaching possibly a stagnation point, we wouldn't be the first team to hit this wall (Stoke, West Brom, Burnley, Fulham), I have all the faith that the club can overcome and vault this wall, but its a very interesting crossroads.

Definitely at an important and interesting inflection point. We're not far away from having no one left on the playing side from the promotion era (Dunk/Solly ) which feels a bit weird. We need to take care of the future spine of the team (def. see JP, Pedro, Baleba as essential to this).

We of course need to remain sustainable and profitable first and foremost. But there's a nagging feeling about the balance and need/desire to frequently buy mainly for future resale, investing in the tomorrow rather than the now. The reality is, all good and great teams are a beautiful and carefully crafted blend of both youth and experience. (FWIW... I'd love us to buy Justin Kluivert who I really rate and think would make an instant impact).

Presumably, when we swooped (to use a well-worn journalistic cliché) for Veltman (peanuts) and Welbeck on a free, it was not for their future resale value and growth trajectory – but their value to the team in the here and now – and that value has been immeasurable. Gross is a really hard one though – probably the smartest BHA footballer in a very long time, possibly ever. One of those 'once every 20-30 years players' who you buy at a snip and turns out to be a living legend.

I don't think Uncle Tone does stagnation. He'll want more Top 10 to Top 6, possibly a cup and definitely more Euro beanos.. mainly because he absolutely loved it.

 

[The Fits]

The football is largely dull and Fab is largely dull. That’s why this argument is still ongoing.
Harsh really but kind of sums football up- you’ve only got to look at the likes of Spurs, Everton, West Ham- clubs create their own mythologies, supporters buy into it, supporters demand more even if they’ve nothing to be moaning about.

As is being discussed more in this thread now- it’s nothing to do with Fab really. We need better players in key positions- and more experience in those positions- or we will continue the injustice of just being a top half PL team.

 

[Justice]

Would you care to provide a link or evidence to that

Their are plenty on this board

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

It is deniable.
It depends on how you judge what is the worst injury problem in the league.
In terms of days out injured we top the list, sure. But in terms of availability of our strongest players we have been very very lucky.
Look at Forest - if they lose Chris Wood for two months and that’s their only injury, the number of squad injury days is very small but the impact on their team is large.
Our total injury days squad figure is probably bloated by Milner alone, who wasnt getting in the first team anyway.
Essentially if Milner was released in the summer, the extreme injury excuse is significantly diminished.
Everything else you say I agree with. Reservations about Fab but based on our league position, he has definitely done enough to keep his job.

I believe we top the list for days out and the number of individual injuries that have made a player miss at least one game. I reckon that's how most injury crises are thought of.

I'd say a team being in big trouble because of one player missing is more a squad problem than an injury one.

I do agree though that the strength of our squad has meant that we've nearly always been able to field a strong(on paper at least) starting 11. Which is why I think FH could have done better but he has had to deal with a huge number of injuries.

 

[ukpolska]

Their are plenty on this board

That's a rather amateur stab at justification of your statement by using hearsay without any factual substance

 

[tstanbur]

FWIW... I'd love us to buy Justin Kluivert who I really rate and think would make an instant impact).

Absolutely no chance of that, he'll be on the radar of some much richer clubs than us.

 

[Doug-ees-evil]

Absolutely no chance of that, he'll be on the radar of some much richer clubs than us.

Yes you're probably right. He is quality. But maybe we could have gone for him instead of two of the current lot of summer signings..?
I don't think Kluivert's fee would have been a lot more than Rutter's £40M tbh. (I like Rutter btw.. just an example).

 

[DJ NOBO]

I believe we top the list for days out and the number of individual injuries that have made a player miss at least one game. I reckon that's how most injury crises are thought of.

I'd say a team being in big trouble because of one player missing is more a squad problem than an injury one.

I do agree though that the strength of our squad has meant that we've nearly always been able to field a strong(on paper at least) starting 11. Which is why I think FH could have done better but he has had to deal with a huge number of injuries.

It may well be.
But that system says if Joe Knight gets injured for 2 months it has more impact on the squad than if Mitoma was injured for a few days less.
I would say the loss of Mitoma even for a bit less time would be more of a loss, as he’s a world class player whereas Joe Knight is making his name.
It‘s just an anomaly this season that the players who many, at the start of the season, would have regarded as our most important haven’t got injured much at all.
So in the chat about Fab’s injury selection woes, surely that counts for something when assessing how well/badly he’s done.
In other words, yes there have been injuries. But fortunately not to those regarded at the start of the season as our most important players.

 

[Milano]

It may well be.
But that system says if Joe Knight gets injured for 2 months it has more impact on the squad than if Mitoma was injured for a few days less.
I would say the loss of Mitoma even for a bit less time would be more of a loss, as he’s a world class player whereas Joe Knight is making his name.
It‘s just an anomaly this season that the players who many, at the start of the season, would have regarded as our most important haven’t got injured much at all.
So in the chat about Fab’s injury selection woes, surely that counts for something when assessing how well/badly he’s done.
In other words, yes there have been injuries. But fortunately not to those regarded at the start of the season as our most important players.

Isn't it that the injuries seem to have hit the same positions at the same time? Vs Forest we only had one CM deemed fit enough to start. We currently only have one fit full back. As an example no way do CP score their 2nd goal so easily if Veltman is on the pitch instead of a CM doing a job. Now we have only one established CB available for Saturday. It's never ending.