[News] A woman is a woman.

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The biggest issue besides the rights issue with this is it can now be used by predators. Cis men can now go into women's bathrooms and the like and just say they're trans men.

No they absolutely cannot.
You have got completely the wrong end of the stick.
On a par with 'Starmer is so left wing, forcing us back into the EU, and now we can never leave again'.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Tiresome having to correct asinine comments on this thread.

 

[Washie]

No they absolutely cannot.
You have got completely the wrong end of the stick.
On a par with 'Starmer is so left wing, forcing us back into the EU, and now we can never leave again'.

I'm using it as point that men could lie, because I have known men who would definitely do this and it scares me.

 

[BadFish]

Stat I first saw was 0.018%. There seem to be a few knocking around though. One of them 1.7% of population is intersex (insert gag here ) . That’s hard to believe.

Not enough people know what intersex means though , sure

I think the confusion is that there is a difference between being consider intersex and not fitting into the traditional binary idea of sex. According to this report 1.7% of people fit into this category. As this is what our discussion was about I think it's a relevant statistics suggesting that a significant enough number of people do not align with the binary idea of sex due to one or more of the indicators being out of alignment for it to be noteworthy.

Especially if you consider that this figure is similar to the number of people who experience gender dysphoria, which we all have to agree is noteworthy as it is so widely discussed.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/intersex-people

Intersex people are born with sex characteristics (such as sexual anatomy, reproductive organs, hormonal patterns and/or chromosomal patterns) that do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies. Experts estimate that up to 1.7 percent of the population are born with intersex traits.

 

[BadFish]

I'm using it as point that men could lie, because I have known men who would definitely do this and it scares me.

The decision means that CIS men cannot do this. It now explicitly states at trans women are not allowed into men's bathrooms.

Although I struggle with why predator cos male would go to the bother of lying to enter a women's bathroom in order to attack a women. Are you suggesting that they respect the sign on the bathroom door more than they do the laws that protect women from attack.

Can you explain the thinking of the people you know that do this? I hope you have reported them to the police too.

 

[pocketseagull]

No. The Gents and Ladies appellations now apply to biological sex, not gender. Transgender (TG) male-to-female and female-to-male people will now have to use the toilet of their biological sex, when there are no gender neutral toilets available.

Washie is spot on. Unless you're proposing checks are taking place then cis men can now just claim to trans men to use the ladies toilet. If the concern is around safety then this is giving far more opportunity for abuse as well as making things more difficult for trans people just trying to get on with their lives.

 

[GT49er]

The biggest issue besides the rights issue with this is it can now be used by predators. Cis men can now go into women's bathrooms and the like and just say they're trans men.

No, it's exactly the opposite. If they were born male - male hormones, genes, naughty bits, whatever - they can't. That's the point - that ridiculous ruling in Scotland has effectively been over-ruled. Anyway. I suspect common sense in life in general will probably prevail - a trans woman with beard, body hair, muscles, etc will probably use the gents anyway, and nobody will notice or care. I don't know in detail what can be done chemically and surgically to make a man at birth into a woman, but if it is done convincingly I don't suppose people will turn a hair either, even if she, technically, should be in the gents; 6 ft. 4 with broad shoulders might raise eyebrows though!
Sport (and I don't include chess!) - is another matter; the rules there have to be clear, and if that is hard luck on a very small number of people, sorry! - but that's hard luck.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Washie is spot on. Unless you're proposing checks are taking place then cis men can now just claim to trans men to use the ladies toilet. If the concern is around safety then this is giving far more opportunity for abuse as well as making things more difficult for trans people just trying to get on with their lives.

See the post below yours.

You have got it 100% and 180 degrees wrong.

No wonder people voted 'leave' when ostensibly sensible people like you look at an arse and think its an elbow

 

[pocketseagull]

You stated that 'Transgender (TG) male-to-female and female-to-male people will now have to use the toilet of their biological sex'


What is stopping a cis man from falsely claiming to be a trans man in order to use the ladies toilets?

How are you proposing that is enforced?

 

[BadFish]

You stated that 'Transgender (TG) male-to-female and female-to-male people will now have to use the toilet of their biological sex'


What is stopping a cis man from falsely claiming to be a trans man in order to use the ladies toilets?

How are you proposing that is enforced?

If they are going into the wrong toilets why would they bother pretending? And who are they pretending to?

What is the scenario you are describing, I just don't get.

The further questions is of course, how often does this happen? And as you say how are you going to stop it?

@Washie I am been to hear your experiences around this with the people you know who do this. Why?

 

[dsr-burnley]

Although I struggle with why predator cos male would go to the bother of lying to enter a women's bathroom in order to attack a women. Are you suggesting that they respect the sign on the bathroom door more than they do the laws that protect women from attack.

Can you explain the thinking of the people you know that do this? I hope you have reported them to the police too.

Under the rules as they have been for donkey's years, if a woman or girl were to walk into the women's toilets and a predatory male were to follow her in, then she or any person outside the toilets could tell the bloke to sling his hook. He would have self-identified as a weirdo and possibly a dangerous one.

The trans proposal is that if a woman or girl were to walk into the women's toilets and a predatory male were to follow her in, then it would be discriminatory to challenge him because of the trans woman laws. The predatory male could get so much further before he could be stopped.

 

[BadFish]

Under the rules as they have been for donkey's years, if a woman or girl were to walk into the women's toilets and a predatory male were to follow her in, then she or any person outside the toilets could tell the bloke to sling his hook. He would have self-identified as a weirdo and possibly a dangerous one.

The trans proposal is that if a woman or girl were to walk into the women's toilets and a predatory male were to follow her in, then it would be discriminatory to challenge him because of the trans woman laws. The predatory male could get so much further before he could be stopped.

And the change of the law means that the man could be challenged? I would have thought those concerned about this stuff would be happy with the change?

My point with all this though, is how often does this happen? Has it ever happened? We have been talking about if things are statistically relevant and I can't believe this scenario is.

 

[Curious Orange]

Why are people still trying to point score over toilets? Now that the Equality Act (2010) can no longer be misinterpreted the position is the same as it was before it was enacted.

So I agree with @BadFish et al, there are other issues of violence against women that need addressing .

I also think we need to keep a close eye on the guidance coming out of the EHRC to make sure it provides for safe spaces for people with the gender reassignment characteristic.

 

[DJ NOBO]

I think the confusion is that there is a difference between being consider intersex and not fitting into the traditional binary idea of sex. According to this report 1.7% of people fit into this category. As this is what our discussion was about I think it's a relevant statistics suggesting that a significant enough number of people do not align with the binary idea of sex due to one or more of the indicators being out of alignment for it to be noteworthy.

Especially if you consider that this figure is similar to the number of people who experience gender dysphoria, which we all have to agree is noteworthy as it is so widely discussed.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/intersex-people

Intersex people are born with sex characteristics (such as sexual anatomy, reproductive organs, hormonal patterns and/or chromosomal patterns) that do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies. Experts estimate that up to 1.7 percent of the population are born with intersex traits.

The point I was initially countering was the idea that determining biological sex at birth is complicated.

There are parts of the bigger picture that are complicated but imo determining sex at birth is not one of them.

I’m not entirely sure if this is what those stats are suggesting but I would be surprised if the sex of 1 in 80 or so newborns could not be determined by a cursory check by the midwife. That sounds a couple of zeros out.

As I see it, in all but the most rare cases you’re male or female.

Imo you can’t ever change that, but that’s a different issue.

 

[Titanic]

Tiresome having to correct asinine comments on this thread.

Here's the thing. You don't have to.

 

[Curious Orange]

I’m not entirely sure if this is what those stats are suggesting but I would be surprised if the sex of 1 in 80 or so newborns could not be determined by a cursory check by the midwife. That sounds a couple of zeros out.

A decent sonographer can tell you the sex of your baby way before it is born, if you so choose.

There aren't really any physical surprises these days.

 

[fly high]

And the change of the law means that the man could be challenged? I would have thought those concerned about this stuff would be happy with the change?

My point with all this though, is how often does this happen? Has it ever happened? We have been talking about if things are statistically relevant and I can't believe this scenario is.

No law has changed. The ruling was to clarify the definition of a woman under the equalities act. Not saying there haven't been consequences but the law is still the same.

 

[fly high]

A decent sonographer can tell you the sex of your baby way before it is born, if you so choose.

There aren't really any physical surprises these days.

Granted it was 14 years ago but my nephew and his wife were told their first born would be a girl. They bought loads of girls clothes as did my sister in law, had to give them all away when he was born.

 

[Curious Orange]

Granted it was 14 years ago but my nephew and his wife were told their first born would be a girl. They bought loads of girls clothes as did my sister in law, had to give them all away when he was born.

I did say 'a decent sonographer'.

I remember when Junior Orange was born being sent home to get more baby clothes as none of the new born stuff fitted! So clothing new borns can be an issue irrespective of the colour of the cloth!

 

[DJ NOBO]

Granted it was 14 years ago but my nephew and his wife were told their first born would be a girl. They bought loads of girls clothes as did my sister in law, had to give them all away when he was born.

That happened to a friend of mine too. He’s been dining out on that story for years.
It’s a different thing to not being able to determine sex at birth though.