[News] A woman is a woman.

[DJ NOBO]

Lol no it's not at all.

My rational is backed up by peer scientific research and evidence. That's not at all the same as flat earthers.

Got any other straws to clutch at?

Forgive me if I’ve misunderstood what you wrote, but what I’m getting from your evidence is that there are very, very rare examples that disprove the rule that when you are born you are male or female.
As if determining sex is a minefield. I would say it is almost always very simple.
Which is not to say intersex people are not important. And not to discount gender dysphoria.

 

[BadFish]

You maybe right that the safety factor of what you refer to is overblown in some quarters.
But going by many interviews in the media this week and actual chats I’ve had with women, attacks in changing rooms are not the only concern women have about biological males having access to women-only spaces.

I hope this leads to some resolution on the areas still in dispute, and people take the opportunity to learn more about this subject so we can understand better.

Especially those charged with making decisions that affect people.



I won't be holding my breath, though.

 

[BadFish]

Forgive me if I’ve misunderstood what you wrote, but what I’m getting from your evidence is that there are very, very rare examples that disprove the rule that when you are born you are male or female.
As if determining sex is a minefield. I would say it is almost always very simple.
Which is not to say intersex people are not important. And not to discount gender dysphoria.

A little googling suggested there are a similar number of people are intersex or don't fit into the male female categories. This appears to be similar to the number of people who are trans.

We are currently dismissing one group as statistically irrelevant while shining a spotlight on the other.

Makes you wonder why.

 

[superseagull1994]

Thanks @superseagull1994 , that was an interesting read, April 2023 (the Vice article) seems such a long time ago now.

The two things I noticed in the hyperbole was a concern that the Equality Act (2010) might be amended by Parliament to clarify that woman meant a biological one, as subsequently confirmed as the law by the recent Supreme Court case, and confirmed as the original intent of the Act by Harriet Harman; and that there was concern generally over how minors are treated, which given the subsequent release of the Cass Report in 2024 was probably valid.

I found the Vice articles (I followed a few links) a bit difficult to understand, simply because they mentioned transphobia on several occasions without ever really explaining the reasoning behind it. This just left me more confused than when I started.

Thanks for reading the links, april 23 feels like a different lifetime ago to me now.

I'll be honest I'm probably going to leave this thread after this post as I'm losing the will to discuss it in the space I use for football chat and reading.

I just want to say the Cass Report is pretty shaky at best. https://ruthpearce.net/2024/04/16/w...review-a-round-up-of-commentary-and-evidence/ Now on that link is a round up of commentary and evidence about issues with the cass report and how it flies in the face of ethics in its recommendation and medical practice with a good safety record. Now I'm done.

 

[DJ NOBO]

A little googling suggested there are a similar number of people are intersex or don't fit into the male female categories. This appears to be similar to the number of people who are trans.

We are currently dismissing one group as statistically irrelevant while shining a spotlight on the other.

Makes you wonder why.

Stat I first saw was 0.018%. There seem to be a few knocking around though. One of them 1.7% of population is intersex (insert gag here ) . That’s hard to believe.

Not enough people know what intersex means though , sure

 

[BadFish]

Stat I saw was 0.018%

Ah, interesting. Maybe I need to research a little more.

 

[Barryseagulls]

Ludicrous headline in the militant student newspaper the ‘Guardian’ about the UK resetting the clock on trans rights.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

A little googling suggested there are a similar number of people are intersex or don't fit into the male female categories. This appears to be similar to the number of people who are trans.

We are currently dismissing one group as statistically irrelevant while shining a spotlight on the other.

Makes you wonder why.

Could it be that this legislation has been a governmental hand forced by a tiny number of very determined bad actors and obsessives?

(I am relaxed about the legislation and am confident that trans people have nothing to fear from it going forward because it will soon be modified to deal with the absurdities. I just wish the right wing fundamentalists, militant lesbians and hysterical curtain-twitchers would just f*** off, and the media just stop encouraging them. If I have to sit through another Nicky Campbell phone in on the topic ).

 

[Eeyore]

Excellent point, well made.

And trains. Toilets out of order....

I spent 15 minutes wandering about on an express from Manchester or Leeds to London a few years ago (I forget the details) looking for a toilet.
I eventually had to relieve myself in a corridor.
It was that or in my trousers.

In a corridor ? I understand your frustration and hope CCTV was unable to identify... your tackle, Harry

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Stat I first saw was 0.018%. There seem to be a few knocking around though. One of them 1.7% of population is intersex (insert gag here ) . That’s hard to believe.

Not enough people know what intersex means though , sure

I am 66 and over the decades have engaged with walks of life where there is a visible and welcomed contingent of 'other'. Sexual orientations and genders galore. But I have never come across anyone intersex (to my knowledge - and I am confident they would not have hidden the fact were it to be the case).

That of course does not mean they should not be accommodated by laws.

And not treated like how (when I lived there in the 80s) the Canadians treated the ethnic category of a small band of natives living on a remote island in their census: "too few to constitute a minority").

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

In a corridor ? I understand your frustration and hope CCTV was unable to identify... your tackle, Harry

I am confident I got away with it. It was ten years ago.
To quote The Damned ("Burglar"), you'll never take me alive, copper!

 

[dsr-burnley]

Could it be that this legislation has been a governmental hand forced by a tiny number of very determined bad actors and obsessives?

(I am relaxed about the legislation and am confident that trans people have nothing to fear from it going forward because it will soon be modified to deal with the absurdities. I just wish the right wing fundamentalists, militant lesbians and hysterical curtain-twitchers would just f*** off, and the media just stop encouraging them. If I have to sit through another Nicky Campbell phone in on the topic ).

It could indeed. Cases like the patient referred to earlier complaining because the nurse fitting him with a male catheter calling him a man - that's the sort of thing you have in mind? Also the ones who insist that a simple declaration of femaleness should be enough to enable a (traditionally defined) man to play women's sport. These people make such absurd demands that they absolutely force people to push back.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It could indeed. Cases like the patient referred to earlier complaining because the nurse fitting him with a male catheter calling him a man - that's the sort of thing you have in mind? Also the ones who insist that a simple declaration of femaleness should be enough to enable a (traditionally defined) man to play women's sport. These people make such absurd demands that they absolutely force people to push back.

Occasionally I do agree with you

But the main problem here is not blokes insisting their sex is female.
It is some people insisting that people can define their sex,
and other people insisting that someone who is intersex or trans and transitioned must be forced to identify according to what 'God' made them.

Having been to hospital many times I am confident that one is asked repeatedly what sex and gender one is.
If a nurse flagrantly disregards a patient's declaration then they are unprofessional.
Given that medicine itself includes doctors who disapprove of, for example, abortion and animal research,
I am sure that such unprofessionalism happens.
Perhaps it will happen less so going forward

 

[GT49er]

I have lived here for nigh on 25 years and can confirm this is absolute bobbins


. . . . at least I have never noticed people preferring to stand, nor have I heard this being the reason.

It's several years since a read the report of this, and no, I can't remember the source either - I remember it referred specifically to one city's commuter trains (either Sydney or Melbourne (I can't remember which - it was a detail of no interest to me) so perhaps it happens, but not all over Australia?
Whatever, one way or another it matters not to me - I will never be there to find out!

 

[Curious Orange]

Thanks for reading the links, april 23 feels like a different lifetime ago to me now.

I'll be honest I'm probably going to leave this thread after this post as I'm losing the will to discuss it in the space I use for football chat and reading.

I just want to say the Cass Report is pretty shaky at best. https://ruthpearce.net/2024/04/16/w...review-a-round-up-of-commentary-and-evidence/ Now on that link is a round up of commentary and evidence about issues with the cass report and how it flies in the face of ethics in its recommendation and medical practice with a good safety record. Now I'm done.

The link you posted seems to mostly have been based on the 'Yale' critique (by a grouping within Yale rather than anything official ), and that critique itself seems to be problematic upon peer review.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2025.2455133#d1e1150

On a personal note, I wish you all the best, and hope that things work out well for everyone.

#UTA

 

[Chicken Run]

 

[East Staffs Gull]

View attachment 200193

Incorrect.

 

[Chicken Run]

Incorrect.

You don’t say

 

[m20gull]

Stat I first saw was 0.018%. There seem to be a few knocking around though. One of them 1.7% of population is intersex (insert gag here ) . That’s hard to believe.

Not enough people know what intersex means though , sure

Both those stats are quoted but they represent different things. 1.7% is the proportion who have a difference of sexual development but almost all of those are identifiable as male or female. 0.018% is the remaining proportion for whom it is not possible to determine sex.

 

[Washie]

The biggest issue besides the rights issue with this is it can now be used by predators. Cis men can now go into women's bathrooms and the like and just say they're trans men.