Are you correcting me?
[News] A woman is a woman.
- Thread starter Leekbrookgull
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There are no laws to stop men lying.
I could put on a pair of stockings and apply to join the sixth form of St Trinians. And they may even let me in. But....
The point everyone but you seems to understand is that the law does not allow someone not born female to obtain access to provisions that are exclusively for biological women. Any more.
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dsr-burnley
Well-known member
- Aug 15, 2014
- 2,896
The number of times up to now that a predatory man has taken advantage of his right to enter women's toilets, is few. Because he hasn't had that right, obviously. How many would take advantage of it if it became an unchallengeable right, I don't know. But giving them that right would certainly not make women safer.
If a trans woman looks like a woman then no-one (or hardly anyone) is going to care if she uses the women's toilets. If she looks like a man, then what is the objection to using the men's?
What is to stop someone parking on a double yellow line?
What is to stop me coming round your house and stealing your stereo?
What is to stop me dressing up as a policeman and directing the traffic the wrong way up a one way street?
Nothing.
And I'm scared.
superseagull1994
Active member
- Jun 21, 2011
- 176
Sounds like their next goal is ban on gender changes on passports and documents.
Curious Orange
Punxsatawney Phil
The birth certificate is the keystone document, so to my mind sex should be correctly recorded there, and that should be the document pesented whenever sex needs to be proved.
I don't see why it would be a problem recording gender on other documents as something different to the bearer's sex if the bearer has a Gender Recognition Certificate to enable that change to be recorded.
The important thing is that we don't conflate sex with gender in how we use our language.
I don't see why it would be a problem recording gender on other documents as something different to the bearer's sex if the bearer has a Gender Recognition Certificate to enable that change to be recorded.
The important thing is that we don't conflate sex with gender in how we use our language.
'They' is a Tory peer who says that having a gender specified on a passport that is the gender of the person rather than their biological sex is misleading.
No it isn't.
There will be a proliferation of 'what iffery' and 'whataboutery' now as some if the nuances are identified and dealt with.
'They' may have a 'next goal', but who is 'they'? And so what?
One expects that at some point official documents will require information on gender and biological sex. That is all perfectly manageable under the law as now written. I agree with @Curious Orange above.
superseagull1994
Active member
- Jun 21, 2011
- 176
The gender critical movement (to call them by their own terms) funded evangelical christians in the US who's ultimate goal is the roll back of LGBT acceptance, rights, womens rights including access to abortion and contraception.
Does the above not sound like a bad thing? That's "so what"!
My main concern now is that people who have transitioned and live their lives fully in their gender of their requirement can be supported and, for example, not forced to use the 'wrong' toilet, which they certainly will be now, where gender neutral toilets are not available, if they decide to not break the law.
The link was to some quotes from a Tory peer.
You have added a layer of your own inference to the article, which is not visible to me.
However I certainly am on your side in opposing any group that wish to roll back the rights of people not 'like them'.
I am confident that in the UK they will fail.
But of course to help their failure they need to be called out.
As noted previously by several posters, the solution to confusion over gender and biological sex on official documents is to require the reporting of both.
I am sure this will come to pass.
I have seen posted on here links to statements from the previous government on this and related issues.
They have shown absolutely no leadership, and just bend with whatever wind seems to be coming from the offices of the Daily Mail.
Thankfully they are now gone and some grown ups are in charge.
The landscape is not yet fully redeveloped, but it is heading in the right direction.
Clarification of the difference between biological sex and gender is essential, and it is now legally clear.
I think personally that passports (international docs) should show gender/sex of birth on it for security/safety reasons
Uk only documents makes no difference, put what ever you want on it.
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m20gull
Well-known member
If access to single sex spaces is determined by sex, and gender reassignment requires no action whatsoever, why would you need gender recorded anywhere?
This approach is surely the most sensible.
But you then have the issue of defining who can go into single sex spaces and participate in single sex activities like sport. I've seen a handful of cases where this has been an issue but the status quo seems to be working. It seems that the definition needed fixing but not much else.
But the absolute priority now is to readdress the horrific imbalance and sensationalist reporting of trans issues in the media. The demonisation of trans people in certain publications and political parties is disgraceful. Equally appalling is the under reporting of abuse, crimes, assaults and misogyny to Women from men and the current toxic masculinity/incel culture that is infecting youth culture.
The likes of JK Rowling have been completely gaslit by the radical feminism of groups like the LGB Alliance. Women are in more danger now than in a generation and that danger is not from having the odd trans-woman entering women only spaces or activities, it's from the influencers online that teach young men that women are 2nd class citizens.
My comments on this topic are nuanced and there are numerous caveats.
We need to upscale gender neutral provision, then gender ceases to be an issue.
We can't simply exclude trans women from single sex spaces and expect them to muck in with the blokes.
This means more gender neutral provision for changing rooms in swimming pools, gyms, football stadia.....
I can imagine this becoming a legal requirement in public spaces.
And in order to not create gender neutral ghettos I would actively encourage use of gender neutral facilities by all.
Then the female extremes of left and right, who fear being raped by a trans woman, can enjoy the women only spaces,
without making trans women feel like outcasts.
People who transition are defined in their daily life by their gender rather than biological sex.
If we ceased to label people according to gender then all those people, some of whom have lived for decades as women,
in many cases without friends and colleagues being aware of the biological sex,
would suddenly have define themselves as males (and use the gents).
And so on. That would be grotesque.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,430
mentioning sensationalism, maybe we shouldn't be in a place where the insult "terf" is a thing, and people are hounded out for daring to say a woman is a woman. radical trans have tried to shut down debate at sensible levels, every ratchets up. this ruling is far from the end, merely a resetting.
Cheers. As I have been prompted to acknowledge by another poster, a gender label would become irrelevant if we had proper provision of gender neutral facilities across society (that can be used by all genders).
And yes, and as usual, gobshite bad actors have hijacked all this stuff to promote their extreme agenda.
Also, it is easy to have misunderstandings with people with whom one is probably in agreement.
I was shouted at by Mrs T the other day because she thought I was saying that a trans male cannot claim to be a man.
I meant 'biological'.
This is why I decided that maybe defining both gender and sex would be useful.
But it is hard to have a discussion with someone who believes we can be whatever we define ourselves to be,
and that by not accepting that a biological male can be a biological female is somehow unacceptable.
I am not sure we resolved this disagreement and it became safer to change the subject....
m20gull
Well-known member
This sounds like an argument for not recording gender but making it irrelevant in public spaces. There is definitely a trend to gender neutral facilities and this will not be reversed.
On the second point it could be argued that people using the wrong single sex spaces have been breaking the law since 2010.
highflyer
Well-known member
- Jan 21, 2016
- 2,715
The true 'threats to our society' are to be found on super yachts and private jets. Not in women's toilets, prisons or sporting events. Or on small boats crossing the channel for that matter.
We are being played by the billionaires.
We should live by principles of tolerance and empathy. Not hatred and fear. Whatever Trump and his friends tell us to think.
Diveded we lose.
We are being played by the billionaires.
We should live by principles of tolerance and empathy. Not hatred and fear. Whatever Trump and his friends tell us to think.
Diveded we lose.
I do wonder if biological sex and gender can truly be separated as people say it can be.
As a woman, I honestly don’t care who used the toilets I do, or the changing rooms. The majority of people of any gender are not sex offenders and we’ve actually long had examples of gender neutral facilities existing without issue (swimming pool changing for example was gender neutral ever since I was little). I fully support the rights of trans men and women to exist and to welcome them into spaces they feel comfortable.
There are some instances though, where I feel like they can not be easily separated. I’ll probably get called all sorts for this but I don’t agree with saying men can be pregnant, or have periods. Women can’t have erections. These are events rooted in biological sex and form part of the female/male identity.
I think sport is also a good example, despite viewing them as split by gender, they are really spilt by biology. Biological males have biological advantages over females, larger lungs, longer bones etc, not things that are undone by limiting testosterone (it might be different if someone is on blockers from a young age but i don’t think we have the evidence for that yet). It’s one instance where I do think women’s rights are being ignored in a rush to be supportive. It needs to be more considered and also, it might be that there is no solution that everyone can be happy with, not all problems have a solution.
The Clamp
Well-known member
It seems throughout history people have this abject fear that they’re going to be raped if a gay, black person or trans enters their “protected space” or shares some municipal facility such as a water fountain or bus.
If someone wants to rape you, it’s unlikely they’ll put a frock on first and barge into your shitter.
However, I think all this legislation and protesting and hoo ha is nonsense. From all sides.
If you’re a bloke dressed as a bird and you go into a female bog, someone might shout at you. They might not.
People should be able to figure it out amongst themselves.
It’s such a small problem, on both sides.
But I think common sense has prevailed in the bigger scheme of things. With the the decision on the biological gender / birth thing. Probably the right choice.
The world has bigger problems right now and everyone needs to get over themselves. The world isn’t some big tik tok video for your egos. On all sides.
Now, with me…
Come and get your black bin bags..
If someone wants to rape you, it’s unlikely they’ll put a frock on first and barge into your shitter.
However, I think all this legislation and protesting and hoo ha is nonsense. From all sides.
If you’re a bloke dressed as a bird and you go into a female bog, someone might shout at you. They might not.
People should be able to figure it out amongst themselves.
It’s such a small problem, on both sides.
But I think common sense has prevailed in the bigger scheme of things. With the the decision on the biological gender / birth thing. Probably the right choice.
The world has bigger problems right now and everyone needs to get over themselves. The world isn’t some big tik tok video for your egos. On all sides.
Now, with me…
Come and get your black bin bags..