[Football] Tactical Nerd Alert - Is building from the back dead?

[Herr Tubthumper]

It's definitely not dead. But as a we do it every time, it's just the way we play mate, sort of ideology, it might be.

It's still a great way of getting space in behind, but you need to keep the opposition guessing. The if you've got a keeper who can go short, mid and and long, and signals that the players understand where to move and when, then it's hard for the opposition to defend all the people and spaces.

But yeh, we're miles off this in terms of tactics and personnel

Agree. He uses Barcelona as an example, top of their table and in the CL semis. Seems to work quite well for them even though the message is they concede more goals from their own goal kicks*.

* see my post above.

 

[Flounce]

Which is why I prefer football.

Give me International Rugby Union over International football every day of the week. Rugby League can do one though.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I have watched a lot of his videos in the past and find his analysis thought provoking. He isn’t always right but he does have a good knowledge of systems and tactics and analysis of a particular managers style.

Agree. He’s very good at explaining systems and how they work etc. in this sense his analysis is great. I’m just not convinced by his final conclusions.

That said, I don’t fully understand the finer details of Xg so there’s some learning for me.

 

[jackalbion]

We’ve played our worst football this season when FH has got us building from the back. If he can switch back to that counter style from the 6 games run we are cooking. Get the players winning second balls, its basic stuff, but the manager seems to have abandoned that.

 

[beorhthelm]

not dead, you need players switched on and swift to react, beat the press. that means players movement. also need to willing to put one long, or switch to direct counters quickly, so opposition dont simply push up to compress the space you have.

simply knocking the ball around the back with no real purpose other than possession stats is not playing from the back.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

We’ve played our worst football this season when FH has got us building from the back. If he can switch back to that counter style from the 6 games run we are cooking. Get the players winning second balls, it’s basic stuff, but the manager seems to have abandoned that.

Seconds balls and tighten up passing. Both would go a long way to improving our lot.

 

[GT49er]

Has anyone told RDZ?

Would he listen?

 

[Dave the OAP]

Did anyone see Gary Neville ( i have no time for him normally) talking about the players with the most passes in the Prem ( last season I think it was) and all the top 5 were defenders and top was our Dunk?

his tag line “ do people really go to watch football to see defenders passing to each other” was an interesting one and him and his panel were referring back to the days when the players with most passes were the creative midfielders and those were the player who excited crowds rather than the constant tippy tippy bollocks we all see nowadays.

even Rio Ferdinand agreed saying that Ferguson’s mantra was if you are a defender, get the ball into midfield as soon as you can as he wasn’t paying defenders to “ f*** about with it at the back” it was not their job.

i know this is something that Man City first brought in and lots of teams like us have copied it with various levels of success, but personally I agreed. I would much rather seeing Gomes or Gross playing the ball through midfield and front than Dunk to JPVH to dunk to JPVH to dunk…back to Bart and repeat.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I would much rather seeing Gomes or Gross playing the ball through midfield and front than Dunk to JPVH to dunk to JPVH to dunk…back to Bart and repeat.

How do you propose getting the ball to Gomez or Gross?

 

[BNthree]

Mad thing is even u11s play out from the back these days. It’s become such a standard of football it will take a while to go out of fashion.

 

[studio150]

Did anyone see Gary Neville ( i have no time for him normally) talking about the players with the most passes in the Prem ( last season I think it was) and all the top 5 were defenders and top was our Dunk?

his tag line “ do people really go to watch football to see defenders passing to each other” was an interesting one and him and his panel were referring back to the days when the players with most passes were the creative midfielders and those were the player who excited crowds rather than the constant tippy tippy bollocks we all see nowadays.

even Rio Ferdinand agreed saying that Ferguson’s mantra was if you are a defender, get the ball into midfield as soon as you can as he wasn’t paying defenders to “ f*** about with it at the back” it was not their job.

i know this is something that Man City first brought in and lots of teams like us have copied it with various levels of success, but personally I agreed. I would much rather seeing Gomes or Gross playing the ball through midfield and front than Dunk to JPVH to dunk to JPVH to dunk…back to Bart and repeat.

So you were happy with McNab playing lots of passes in midfield, although I'm not sure if he ever made a forward pass in his Brighton career.
But not happy when Poyet came in, as we weren't hoofing it long, or do results override any style.

 

[Ding Dong !]

Hoof it up........ how many goals have been gifted this season and points dropped by dicking about at the back this season alone ?

 

[Blue3]

Playing out from the back is brilliant to watch when it’s completed at speed with a pivot like Alexa Macallister in midfield but as the video clearly shows a high press is often is its downfall when is dose Brighton will so occasionally go for the long ball to mix it up a bit but that means you more likely to loose possession and control of the game so while it’s a useful tool the long ball has limitations so it comes down to the plans B and C when RDZ was manager it was often said the formation could change mid game and even a second time but I don't see that so much under FH in fact I am sure if we do we even have a plan B?

 

[The Fits]

Nothing lasts forever.

 

[jonny.rainbow]

Playing out from the back is brilliant to watch when it’s completed at speed with a pivot like Alexa Macallister in midfield but as the video clearly shows a high press is often is its downfall when is dose Brighton will so occasionally go for the long ball to mix it up a bit but that means you more likely to loose possession and control of the game so while it’s a useful tool the long ball has limitations so it comes down to the plans B and C when RDZ was manager it was often said the formation could change mid game and even a second time but I don't see that so much under FH in fact I am sure if we do we even have a plan B?

Alexa! Play double pivot by De Zerbi.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

High risk low reward, same as it always was for those with eyes to see what they're watching. Hopefully will be quietly dropped like its idiot cousin the two man corner kick

 

[Bold Seagull]

Football has rarely been a game where the team with less of the ball over a course of a season is more successful. If you’ve got the ball - keep the ball. As the great Brian Clough used to say, if God had wanted football played in the clouds he’d have put grass up there.

The great Dutch team of the 70s, Brazil, Clough’s Forest, Liverpool, Barca, ManCity etc. all dominate the football to some degree.

A siesmic change was banning the backpass, but then came the organised low block, something inferior sides playing in Europe did especially away, hence the away goals rule. And so dicking about at the back is necessary to counter the negative low blocking teams, like any sport sometimes you need to dangle a carrot, ie take some risks in order to manufacture your own reward.

So low block teams like Forest have become high press fast counter teams - and evolution of exploiting the carrot. These things ebb and flow over time.

Think of the most successful teams in football, they generally have more of the ball.

 

[Giraffe]

I really hope so. Possession football v low blocks is so boring and the majority of games are set up like this. The best game of the season for me was our home game v Bournemouth (and I said that long before we got the winner). Both teams attacking each other to relentlessly. Great game and true entertainment rather than the bore fest that most games are now. It feels like we go long less than we did when we were winning games. May be due to personnel but we have had lots of success with long balls. Mitoma goal is a prime example.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Not a fan of over coached systemised football, players checking with the free kick coach or the corner coach before playing the ball . Or indeed players just playing the system continually when its not working and then waiting for the 'its not working coach' to change the formation or tactics. Football needs to be a bit more in the moment that's probably why I would have preferred to see Enciso stay. Just watching Bart put his foot on the ball and rolling it around drives me nuts. don't get me wrong some of the Potterball was ok when played faster, same with RDZ and it is very pleasing when it works but...

 

[Wardy's twin]

Football has rarely been a game where the team with less of the ball over a course of a season is more successful. If you’ve got the ball - keep the ball. As the great Brian Clough used to say, if God had wanted football played in the clouds he’d have put grass up there.

The great Dutch team of the 70s, Brazil, Clough’s Forest, Liverpool, Barca, ManCity etc. all dominate the football to some degree.

A siesmic change was banning the backpass, but then came the organised low block, something inferior sides playing in Europe did especially away, hence the away goals rule. And so dicking about at the back is necessary to counter the negative low blocking teams, like any sport sometimes you need to dangle a carrot, ie take some risks in order to manufacture your own reward.

So low block teams like Forest have become high press fast counter teams - and evolution of exploiting the carrot. These things ebb and flow over time.

Think of the most successful teams in football, they generally have more of the ball.

agreed but they then do something with it. Liverpool are the best team in England and they are not afraid of route one at times, or just maybe some quick audacious passes to get up field quickly but it's interleaved into their build at the back not instead off.