[Albion] Fabian Hurzeler: IN or OUT

[Kalimantan Gull]

I really don’t think comparing how any of those three did in their first season helps with a defence of Hurzeler to be honest when you look at the instant improvement of all three clubs when those managers were appointed.

Concentrating on Iraola though, he transformed the way Bournemouth played in his first season last season with pretty instant effect. Even when they weren’t getting results at the start, their underlying numbers were impressive and it was a matter of time before they started getting results. They got better and better as the season went on and carried that form into this season. Can anyone say Hurzeler has improved us and the way we play after a full pre season and near full actual season? Absolutely not.

If I was a neutral, I know for sure which team I would want to watch out of the two of us. The exciting team with a structure and coherent plan who play as a unit, not the chaotic mess reliant on individual performances to get points and who don’t know how to defend as a team

Bournemouth also started from a lower base than us player squad strength wise having only come back up a couple of seasons ago. They may have spent a bit of money in the summer but not as much as us, they sold their best player last summer and still improved and they have also had really bad injury problems.

Finally, lets see out of Iraola and Hurzeler who the big clubs looking for new managers target this summer.

You can say all of this, and praise Iraola to the hilt, but Fabian is doing just as good as Iraola this season. Just as good.

 

[Sarisbury Seagull]

You can say all of this, and praise Iraola to the hilt, but Fabian is doing just as good as Iraola this season. Just as good.

I couldn’t disagree more.

 

[Hometownglory]

You can say all of this, and praise Iraola to the hilt, but Fabian is doing just as good as Iraola this season. Just as good.

Whatever you're taking, please can I have some?

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Thanks for the sensible and detailed reply. I'd like to address each of your points in turn if I may, I do think you have captured most of the alternative viewpoints



I guess we can agree to differ on the first part. Brentford have two of the best forwards in the league and get it up to them, otherwise neat and solid. Fulham are just a physical beast of a side with decent talent in every position and clear roles. I wouldn't switch on to watch the football of either, I wouldn't turn them off either, and enjoy them taking on the big boys.. Bournemouth agreed have been lovely at times. Meanwhile when we have been on it we have been great. Inconsistent yes. But some of our halves of football have been absolutely superb.



Yes, many people have said that they 'can't see what Hurzeler' is trying to do. I suggest they just look harder. I have seen clear patterns of play, particularly during our recent run of good results when the team was largely unchanged and relatively unscathed by injuries. There are also many youtube videos of so-called experts dissecting it. The empty midfield is a thing, one dropping back into the back 3, the other joining the attack. It has worked. It also has not worked on many occasions. IF it CAN work long term at this level, it will be quite something. I would like to keep trying, its not as if we need to change to stave off relegation. NSC used to be a place to discuss tactics, now it is a place to say 'I don't like /can't understand his tactics, get rid'. Bit of a shame.



The Out of Possession - clear defensive structure - is a really interesting point and I think we can take the time to compare with Graham Potter. GP brought in an attacking possession-based football that overloaded up front and was such a clear contrast from Hughton's football that we all loved it. But we kept getting caught on the counter. Over and over. Seems there are teams out there who just wait for naive manager's to come along and commit too many players forward and then they pick them off at will. Quite early on Potter realised this and changed it up. Gone was a twin-pronged attack of Murray+Maupay, in came an extra central midfielder and we slowed down our play, making sure we were solid and organised before committing forward. Many of his critics on here will recognise the ensuing year and a half as the dull, rarely winning, dominating-possession-but-rarely-scoring phase. It took him ages to come up with the solution, which in the end was partly the skill of Trossard and partly the ability of Caicedo to win the ball when other teams were committing men forward, and shifting it forward quickly via Mac Allister to the attackers. RDZ just took that exact same thing and made it even better by encouraging the opposition to commit players forward, and was helped by the emergence of Mitoma and the zenith of March's career, alongside the absolute brilliance of Caicedo and Mac.

So far Fab has refused to abandon his attacking principles. Unlike Potter, who gave up his attacking verve for a more solid defensive structure, much like many of the premier leagues successful managers do, Fab is trying to work out the defensive side of our tactics whilst maintaining the attacking structure. Its brave and has resulted in some horrible results. But I would LOVE to see it come to fruition, it could be so exciting. In a way I was disappointed when Potter changed styles because I love seeing slick passing attacking football and there was some great stuff in the first few months of Potter.

At the end of the day Fab needs a top striker. That Leicester game, and thus our mood, would have been so different with a clinical scorer up front. So would the Brentford 0-0, and so would many others. He also needs some super quick and smart defenders. All of our great results have had some heart-in-mouth moments. And finally on this point, there was a period where Fab DID go a bit more defensive, at the start of the run of 6 wins. I think he was nervous at Webster being in the side, so against Chelsea in the league Minteh was almost playing as a right back in a back 5, with Veltman pushed inside, and we did that for a bit until Webster showed he was more than capable. So he CAN adapt, we can also look at Newcastle away, Villa away, but just like RDZ he doesn't want to adapt his main style, he wants to make it work, he really believes in it. Its so hard to develop something new when the crowd get on your back, when every premier league result is crucial for your job security, so he gets kudos from me for it. If we're still here one year from now, I expect I will have changed my mind and put him in the Russell Martin bracket.



All those teams have a higher net spend than us in the three years since Bournemouth were promoted. Yes we've spent a lot more in total £££, but none of those three teams have had to replace a Caicedo, a Mac Allister, a Bissouma, a Cucurella, a Trossard. Fab is bedding players in. Minteh, Gruda are obviously ones for the future. Rutter too but he looks the real deal from the start. Every manager will have favourites, players on the outside, ones who improve and ones who fade. Other clubs have recruited better, in terms of generating first team ready players, but they have a financial sustainability / PSR cost. I look at our recruitment as a long-term project to increase the total value of our squad - as I believe this is the key indicator of a club's final position. The higher the value of the squad the better the recruitment opportunities. I think it will take time to get there.



Should always give a manager time, unless they're a complete failure. Many called for Micky's head during his first season, champions the next. It takes time. RDZ was special in how quickly he did it, but the players were there. Was this a year a real opportunity at the start, coming off last years performances? I was genuinely nervous about a relegation fight. The high spend seemed to be an insurance policy in case the manager was shite. I think it became an opportunity because Fab hit the ground running, because he got them functioning again after a poor winter. In the end injuries, fixture pile up, and his own inexperience got the better of it. Year two will have real expectations. This year should never have had them imo.



We want more. We all want more. I want more. We all look at Forest and want that. We look at Villa and want that. Its ridiculous that those two giants of English football are our peers now, but its where we're at. BUT, but but but, wanting it doesn't mean it should become an expectation. Thats silly and leads to disappointment and anger and over reactions. The reality is that we have a young inexperienced manager, a young inexperienced coach, a load of injuries, and Welbeck-aside our older, wiser, experienced heads have either left the club (Gross, Lallana), are injured (Milner, March, Veltman, Webster) or finally losing their skills (Dunk). In the cold light of day its impressive where we are in the league. I don't know how much better we could have done in this scenario.



I don't disagree with this. At the time I thought that we didn't need to take the chance on someone like Fab. We could have got our own Silva or Iraola or Nuno. Maybe that was what we should have done. But its not Bloom's style, he loves the idea of unearthing the gem. He doesn't want a Silva or a Nuno. He knows that a Iraola is a two-year rental. He wants the next Guardiola and wants to take a gamble on that. So we are here and as soon as TB picks him he has my backing. No point in re-doing that decision.



Agree again, its not a good thing. Its the runs of results that allow these opinions to fester. Win one draw one lose one and its a lot calmer, a bit like Fulham are doing. The Palace double defeat is very important for some people. But I hate the personal attacks, he's a nice guy working hard to do the job that is his passion, has given us some great days already and is by all accounts popular in the club. The only thing I can do is be patient. We, Brighton and Hove Albion, are trying to crack the very highest level of the most difficult league in the world, competing with teams with a reach and a pocket that dwarfs us. Patience and time and togetherness are the ONLY way we get there.

I'm pretty sure that Hurzeler will be a big managerial success in his career. I'm far less sure it will happen here, but I'll give him a 50% chance of being our best ever manager (so far) and 50% he's gone by next June. But even if it was 5% - 95%, those are odds I would gladly accept. Sacking him just resets everything and takes away any possibility of what could be. Why would we do that? The chance is well worth taking.

Thanks for reading

Thanks again @Kalimantan Gull. Enjoyed reading the response and we seem to agree on a number of things.

I’m not as good at the quote thing as you, (apologies) but to come back on a few points.

I would say under RdZ we were the most entertaining team in the division to watch bar none, with a relatively similar playing personnel in year 2. (Forget the last 3 months he was about as interested as some of our players in the last few games).
I simply don’t agree our football has been close to the first 18 months of RdZ in any sense. Bournemouth particularly are a lot more enjoyable to watch, even Palace looked better at times.

Everyone will argue MacAllister and Caicedo etc., but we forget that we started last season well, and even up to the Forest away game with 10 men we were resolute and hard to break down. This season with the exception of Newcastle away, we have been quite poor in terms of how we set up.

I maintain FH’s style is chaotic, and out of possession there is no structure. That simple diagonal ball on the first goal Saturday, was down to the tactics.

In terms of the signings, whilst we are replacing established high performing players as you highlight, generating that level of income you would hope it might have been easier. Let’s not forget we already had an established core, the whole new players bedding in doesn’t stack up for me, as in the summer I only anticipated Wieffer and Minteh starting, and Ferdi after he signed, Rutter as a sub, so thinking about it like that, two/three players is not significant, and most teams deal with a similar number each year. Normally, an incoming manager will gradually and subtly change style (see RdZ post Potter). FH although inheriting a good squad has perhaps gone too far too fast.

I’ll say it quietly, but perhaps our recruitment actually wasn’t that great, but I don’t think we’ll know until next season. Out of those signed, I actually think only Rutter has been a huge improvement, and to a lot lesser extent Minteh. Bournemouth starting from a lower base seem to have unearthed better PL ready players. Injuries have played a part, but all the more reason to get the structure right, so it’s easier for the incoming players.

In the cold light of day, It does remain impressive where we are, but how much of that is because of/in spite of is debatable

Interesting re the relegation point for this season, because I didn’t feel like that, but unless we strengthen defensively I will feel nervous for next season.

 

[Hiheidi]

You can say all of this, and praise Iraola to the hilt, but Fabian is doing just as good as Iraola this season. Just as good.

It is interesting to look at how Bournemouth's season played out last year. I'm pretty sure a lot of those praising Iraola, would have moaned at the long streaks without winning, inconsistent results and a lot of the wins coming against bottom sides. They had a really good run in the December, but that's not dissimilar to us having a good run this March.

 

[Flounce]

It is interesting to look at how Bournemouth's season played out last year. I'm pretty sure a lot of those praising Iraola, would have moaned at the long streaks without winning, inconsistent results and a lot of the wins coming against bottom sides. They had a really good run in the December, but that's not dissimilar to us having a good run this March.

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Pre season when Iraola was appointed they were amongst the favourites for relegation at 5/2 so that is a pretty impressive season with a new manager imo.

How many Albion fans would prefer FH over Iraola given a choice now

 

[Hiheidi]

Pre season when Iraola was appointed they were amongst the favourites for relegation at 5/2 so that is a pretty impressive season with a new manager imo.

Most people predicted them to finish mid table. I'd say they were on parr.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Pre season when Iraola was appointed they were amongst the favourites for relegation at 5/2 so that is a pretty impressive season with a new manager imo.

How many Albion fans would prefer FH over Iraola given a choice now

To be fair @Sarisbury Seagull called Iraola’s talents very early on, in fact I think when he was with his previous club.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I couldn’t disagree more.

I think you need to apply some logic here. Accordingly to many on here Bournemouth play some of the best football in the division. They have a fantastic squad full of players we admire. Their manager is one of the best in the business and in demand by big 6 clubs.

On the other hand we have Brighton, with Dunk slow and useless, barely a full-back in sight, Pedro swanning around, injuries all over the place, consistently conceding counter-attacking goals, slow and ponderous in the build-up, and some of our best players sent out on loan.

For this rather rubbish Brighton to have just a single point fewer than this fantastic Iraola-led team probably speaks rather well of the Brighton manager, wouldn't you say?

 

[oldboyroy]

I think you need to apply some logic here. Accordingly to many on here Bournemouth play some of the best football in the division. They have a fantastic squad full of players we admire. Their manager is one of the best in the business and in demand by big 6 clubs.

On the other hand we have Brighton, with Dunk slow and useless, barely a full-back in sight, Pedro swanning around, injuries all over the place, consistently conceding counter-attacking goals, slow and ponderous in the build-up, and some of our best players sent out on loan.

For this rather rubbish Brighton to have just a single point fewer than this fantastic Iraola-led team probably speaks rather well of the Brighton manager, wouldn't you say?

Fair point

 

[Mancgull]

Going to be an interesting game Saturday isn't it. Potter needs a result likewise Fab. The table says we're better than West Ham so hopefully, get ourselves back to winning ways

Vital for FH.
Got some players back with Veltman, Igor and Lamptey probably available.
Need a win to have a realistic chance of 8th place, but almost more importantly show that the players are behind the manager and understand what he’s asking for.

 

[Deadly Danson]

Vital for FH.
Got some players back with Veltman, Igor and Lamptey probably available.
Need a win to have a realistic chance of 8th place, but almost more importantly show that the players are behind the manager and understand what he’s asking for.

Agree. I'm going to be dramatic and say that a poor defeat against another woeful team will ultimately cost FH his job at the end of the season.

 

[ROSM]

I think you need to apply some logic here. Accordingly to many on here Bournemouth play some of the best football in the division. They have a fantastic squad full of players we admire. Their manager is one of the best in the business and in demand by big 6 clubs.

On the other hand we have Brighton, with Dunk slow and useless, barely a full-back in sight, Pedro swanning around, injuries all over the place, consistently conceding counter-attacking goals, slow and ponderous in the build-up, and some of our best players sent out on loan.

For this rather rubbish Brighton to have just a single point fewer than this fantastic Iraola-led team probably speaks rather well of the Brighton manager, wouldn't you say?

I think you're being deliberately obtuse. I understand why but it isn't helpful.

The point being made regularly is that there is a synergy with Bournemouth (and forest and Fulham and Brentford) that their whole is greater than the sum of their parts. You can't say that with Brighton.

Yes recruitment hasn't helped (not replacing lallana, gross - giving more defensive cover and faster centre backs) and Weir has to take some blame for that but do you believe the manager is getting the best out of what he has available?

I'm not saying he will be sacked but my patience ran out on Saturday with an abject tactical set up against a Brentford who are as predictable as they are effective

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I think you're being deliberately obtuse. I understand why but it isn't helpful.

The point being made regularly is that there is a synergy with Bournemouth (and forest and Fulham and Brentford) that their whole is greater than the sum of their parts. You can't say that with Brighton.

Yes recruitment hasn't helped (not replacing lallana, gross - giving more defensive cover and faster centre backs) and Weir has to take some blame for that but do you believe the manager is getting the best out of what he has available?

I'm not saying he will be sacked but my patience ran out on Saturday with an abject tactical set up against a Brentford who are as predictable as they are effective

It's obtuse because people keep arguing around the point. We're doing just as well a these similar clubs but their fans don't want their managers sacked.

So obviously the results are fine but something is wrong. Its discussed at length, but what is it? I think your post goes some way to answering it. People think our players are better than they perhaps are. Do we really think our squad is better than Bournemouth's or Fulham's? The assumption is yes, but can we be that sure? Our team on Saturday - Verbruggen, van Hecke, good, Dunk, slow, past it, Estupinan, no where near what he was, Wieffer, not a full back, Baleba, brilliant, Hinshelwood, promising, not close to the finished article, Pedro, blows got and cold, oRiley, still settling in, Minteh, very raw, lots of talent, long season catching up with him a bit, Welbeck, many opinions are available.

It's hardly 'should be blowing Bournemouth out of the water' territory, is it?

 

[chickens]

I really don’t think comparing how any of those three did in their first season helps with a defence of Hurzeler to be honest when you look at the instant improvement of all three clubs when those managers were appointed.

Concentrating on Iraola though, he transformed the way Bournemouth played in his first season last season with pretty instant effect. Even when they weren’t getting results at the start, their underlying numbers were impressive and it was a matter of time before they started getting results. They got better and better as the season went on and carried that form into this season. Can anyone say Hurzeler has improved us and the way we play after a full pre season and near full actual season? Absolutely not.

If I was a neutral, I know for sure which team I would want to watch out of the two of us. The exciting team with a structure and coherent plan who play as a unit, not the chaotic mess reliant on individual performances to get points and who don’t know how to defend as a team

Bournemouth also started from a lower base than us player squad strength wise having only come back up a couple of seasons ago. They may have spent a bit of money in the summer but not as much as us, they sold their best player last summer and still improved and they have also had really bad injury problems.

Finally, lets see out of Iraola and Hurzeler who the big clubs looking for new managers target this summer.

Iraola had a promotion season and then 2 seasons managing in La Liga with Rayo Vallecano before heading to Bournemouth, he is further along in his managerial career.

 

[Flounce]

It's obtuse because people keep arguing around the point. We're doing just as well a these similar clubs but their fans don't want their managers sacked.

So obviously the results are fine but something is wrong. Its discussed at length, but what is it? I think your post goes some way to answering it. People think our players are better than they perhaps are. Do we really think our squad is better than Bournemouth's or Fulham's? The assumption is yes, but can we be that sure? Our team on Saturday - Verbruggen, van Hecke, good, Dunk, slow, past it, Estupinan, no where near what he was, Wieffer, not a full back, Baleba, brilliant, Hinshelwood, promising, not close to the finished article, Pedro, blows got and cold, oRiley, still settling in, Minteh, very raw, lots of talent, long season catching up with him a bit, Welbeck, many opinions are available.

It's hardly 'should be blowing Bournemouth out of the water' territory, is it?

Beating Bournemouth twice was a couple of days the Gods shone on us. Best team I’ve seen this season. We got lucky in both games imo. I hated the game at the Amex other than our goals and the final whistle, not been so inclined to watch between my fingers for years!

 

[Balders]

It's obtuse because people keep arguing around the point. We're doing just as well a these similar clubs but their fans don't want their managers sacked.

So obviously the results are fine but something is wrong. Its discussed at length, but what is it? I think your post goes some way to answering it. People think our players are better than they perhaps are. Do we really think our squad is better than Bournemouth's or Fulham's? The assumption is yes, but can we be that sure? Our team on Saturday - Verbruggen, van Hecke, good, Dunk, slow, past it, Estupinan, no where near what he was, Wieffer, not a full back, Baleba, brilliant, Hinshelwood, promising, not close to the finished article, Pedro, blows got and cold, oRiley, still settling in, Minteh, very raw, lots of talent, long season catching up with him a bit, Welbeck, many opinions are available.

It's hardly 'should be blowing Bournemouth out of the water' territory, is it?

Bang on - nailed it!
Are people really comparing our current side to our peak 22-23 first eleven and expecting better results? Is the team you quoted above currently as good or better than:

Sanchez

Veltman
Dunk
Webster
Estupinan

Gross
MacAllister
Caicedo

Mitoma
March
Ferguson

That's the team that beat Chelsea away 2 years ago.....

 

[Weststander]

Beating Bournemouth twice was a couple of days the Gods shone on us. Best team I’ve seen this season. We got lucky in both games imo. I hated the game at the Amex other than our goals and the final whistle, not been so inclined to watch between my fingers for years!

I enjoyed the home game, great football, Iraola had no complaints.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/videos/ceqj92lz1jdo

 

[Flounce]

I enjoyed the home game, great football, Iraola had no complaints.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/videos/ceqj92lz1jdo

I would have enjoyed it if I hadn’t shat myself every time Bournemouth broke

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Bang on - nailed it!
Are people really comparing our current side to our peak 22-23 first eleven and expecting better results? Is the team you quoted above currently as good or better than:

Sanchez

Veltman
Dunk
Webster
Estupinan

Gross
MacAllister
Caicedo

Mitoma
March
Ferguson

That's the team that beat Chelsea away 2 years ago.....

So by definition you’re suggesting we’ve gone backwards?
You could also add the tactics and manager were better than they are currently.

Fair point nonetheless, that team finished 6th and in this division IMO would be top 4.

Edit - do you think FH would have achieved 6th?