[Albion] Fabian Hurzeler: IN or OUT

[ROSM]

It's obtuse because people keep arguing around the point. We're doing just as well a these similar clubs but their fans don't want their managers sacked.

So obviously the results are fine but something is wrong. Its discussed at length, but what is it? I think your post goes some way to answering it. People think our players are better than they perhaps are. Do we really think our squad is better than Bournemouth's or Fulham's? The assumption is yes, but can we be that sure? Our team on Saturday - Verbruggen, van Hecke, good, Dunk, slow, past it, Estupinan, no where near what he was, Wieffer, not a full back, Baleba, brilliant, Hinshelwood, promising, not close to the finished article, Pedro, blows got and cold, oRiley, still settling in, Minteh, very raw, lots of talent, long season catching up with him a bit, Welbeck, many opinions are available.

It's hardly 'should be blowing Bournemouth out of the water' territory, is it?

But why is Pedro blowing hot and cold, why is minteh showing rawness, dunk looking past it (i don't think he is I just don't think this formation does him favours), pervis not as good as he was etc etc?

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

I enjoyed the home game, great football, Iraola had no complaints.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/videos/ceqj92lz1jdo

It was a great game by both teams.
Thought we were lucky, but it doesn’t matter how you win etc…

 

[ROSM]

Bang on - nailed it!
Are people really comparing our current side to our peak 22-23 first eleven and expecting better results? Is the team you quoted above currently as good or better than:

Sanchez

Veltman
Dunk
Webster
Estupinan

Gross
MacAllister
Caicedo

Mitoma
March
Ferguson

That's the team that beat Chelsea away 2 years ago.....

Bart is better than sanchez but not showing it

Jpvh is better than Webster

Welbeck and Pedro are better than march and ferguson
And so on

And that team would be up where Newcastle are in this league this year so asking why what we have isnt 2 or 3 places lower isn't unreasonable

 

[Weststander]

I would have enjoyed it if I hadn’t shat myself every time Bournemouth broke

I’m well used to it by now when Veltman doesn’t play. Literally everyone does it to us …. well, apart from Manure.

In the Bmuff home game we carried great threats too, particularly first 55 minutes and in the finale. There’s a recency thing imho where because they dominated from 55’ to 80’, some went away with a feeling of Bmuff bossing the game. I spoke to an Albion fan (club colours) by the station after the game who was gloomy on how “world class Semenyo had destroyed us. The best player to have ever played at the Amex”.

 

[Weststander]

It was a great game by both teams.
Thought we were lucky, but it doesn’t matter how you win etc…

We’ve been on the receiving end of so many losses where we were the match of the opposition. That’s football.

On the night we dominated for almost an hour and took it up a gear near the end.

There’s alway that Albion achilles heel down the flanks, which I actually document back to West Ham at the Amex August 2023. I wish the club/coaches would do something about it. As a student of the game, what are your thoughts on this?

 

[Balders]

So by definition you’re suggesting we’ve gone backwards?
You could also add the tactics and manager were better than they are currently.

Fair point nonetheless, that team finished 6th and in this division IMO would be top 4.

Edit - do you think FH would have achieved 6th?

My personal view is that we haven't moved forward, so possibly yes, we have gone backwards.

If that is solely down to FH, I'm not so sure, we are performing at the same level, if not better, than the last 6 months of RDZ.

But then personnel has changed, but I'm of the view that the £200m spent was an investment rather than the silver bullet some think it was.

A lot has changed so comparisons are difficult - you could also argue that the likes of Bournemouth and Fulham have got better - other teams are fighting to improve and the PL is becoming increasingly more competitive.

We are performing to the Club's expectations, but not to a number of other people's expectations - that's the key difference for me.

 

[Justice]

We are performing to the Club's expectations, but not to a number of other people's expectations - that's the key difference for me.

Were you privy to TB’s expectations then? Not quite sure why he would mention top 5 a month ago if true.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

We’ve been on the receiving end of so many losses where we were the match of the opposition. That’s football.

On the night we dominated for almost an hour and took it up a gear near the end.

There’s alway that Albion achilles heel down the flanks, which I actually document back to West Ham at the Amex August 2023. I wish the club/coaches would do something about it. As a student of the game, what are your thoughts on this?

If I was still playing/coaching, I think you must have your wide men doubling up. Mitoma and Solly are pretty good, and Minteh is improving, but at times they don’t think.

If you look at Kluiverts goal (great strike), we had two players but they showed him inside on to his stronger foot. You can’t legislate for stupidity.

Saturday will be a test, Bowen often comes from wide inside onto his stronger foot so it’s a recipe for disaster. The other thing will be without possession, whoever is the deeper midfield player, has to be positionally disciplined in case Bowen does come inside.

None of this is rocket science, but we seem to care less about shape without the ball at the moment.

 

[Hometownglory]

My personal view is that we haven't moved forward, so possibly yes, we have gone backwards.

If that is solely down to FH, I'm not so sure, we are performing at the same level, if not better, than the last 6 months of RDZ.

But then personnel has changed, but I'm of the view that the £200m spent was an investment rather than the silver bullet some think it was.

A lot has changed so comparisons are difficult - you could also argue that the likes of Bournemouth and Fulham have got better - other teams are fighting to improve and the PL is becoming increasingly more competitive.

We are performing to the Club's expectations, but not to a number of other people's expectations - that's the key difference for me.

I think these season would feel more positive if the wins and losses were more mixed up. We go through a winning run and the extreme highs that go with it, then long runs of dross and defeats.

 

[Balders]

Bart is better than sanchez but not showing it

Jpvh is better than Webster

Welbeck and Pedro are better than march and ferguson
And so on

And that team would be up where Newcastle are in this league this year so asking why what we have isnt 2 or 3 places lower isn't unreasonable

Welbeck came on for Ferguson after 39 mins and scored from the team I posted....

Is Weiffer a better RB than Veltman
Is Dunk the same player currently as 2 years ago
Is Estupinan the same player currently as 2 years ago
Is Hinshelwood better than Gross
Is O'Reilly better than MacAllister
Is Minteh better than a fit and firing Solly from 2 years ago

If you put a gun to my head I'd argue that Caicedo was better 2 years ago than the current Baleba

So I'm not getting your "and so on"

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

My personal view is that we haven't moved forward, so possibly yes, we have gone backwards.

If that is solely down to FH, I'm not so sure, we are performing at the same level, if not better, than the last 6 months of RDZ.

But then personnel has changed, but I'm of the view that the £200m spent was an investment rather than the silver bullet some think it was.

A lot has changed so comparisons are difficult - you could also argue that the likes of Bournemouth and Fulham have got better - other teams are fighting to improve and the PL is becoming increasingly more competitive.

We are performing to the Club's expectations, but not to a number of other people's expectations - that's the key difference for me.

Very fair.
We probably are at least at the same level of RdZ’s last 3 months, but I don’t think that is a good thing, because that was pretty dire as well

Re the £200m has the personnel really changed that much from last season?
Saturday’s team, the only differences were Wieffer, Minteh and O’Riley, that leaves a pretty strong core.

I think you’re right re investment, but at some point you need to develop/evolve, otherwise we might have already peaked at 6th…… who knows

 

[Weststander]

If I was still playing/coaching, I think you must have your wide men doubling up. Mitoma and Solly are pretty good, and Minteh is improving, but at times they don’t think.

If you look at Kluiverts goal (great strike), we had two players but they showed him inside on to his stronger foot. You can’t legislate for stupidity.

Saturday will be a test, Bowen often comes from wide inside onto his stronger foot so it’s a recipe for disaster. The other thing will be without possession, whoever is the deeper midfield player, has to be positionally disciplined in case Bowen does come inside.

None of this is rocket science, but we seem to care less about shape without the ball at the moment.

My online reading of FH St Pauli stuff last summer, full of praise articles, was that some defenders/2 pivots were set up so that when they were in possession, at least two or more pacy players were stationed in the centre line vicinity. With half an eye and shaped to cover any opposition transition. Covering and disrupting counter attacks, to allow for defensive support to arrive.

 

[Bozza]

Sorry - I've been out all afternoon. Lots of posts I'd like to reply to individually, but it would all get a bit dull.

And @Kalimantan Gull has made some of the points I would anyway: Bournemouth have spent the best part of £250m, have an experienced, well-regarded manager who is light years ahead of what we have, and they are 1 (one) point ahead of us.

I'll also add that for all Iraola's supposed superiority, Hurzeler did the double over him this season.

But, I also agree with many of those who triumph Bournemouth's style of play which, at times, is fast, dynamic and vibrant. How much of that is down to the players recruited and how much down to the manager?

Bournemouth seem to have far more fast, powerful, athletic players than we do. I'm not sure how many of our players I'd say fit that description - not many.

And their football may be more vibrant than our own right now but, as the league table shows, it's similarly effective to our own.

I can't imagine Bournemouth fans went home happy when they lost at Leicester (we didn't) nor lost at home to Ipswich (we didn't) nor losing twice to shitly-managed Brighton...

 

[ROSM]

Welbeck came on for Ferguson after 39 mins and scored from the team I posted....

Is Weiffer a better RB than Veltman
Is Dunk the same player currently as 2 years ago
Is Estupinan the same player currently as 2 years ago
Is Hinshelwood better than Gross
Is O'Reilly better than MacAllister
Is Minteh better than a fit and firing Solly from 2 years ago

If you put a gun to my head I'd argue that Caicedo was better 2 years ago than the current Baleba

So I'm not getting your "and so on"

I think Dunk now playing in a RDZ formation would better than he does under FH

Why isn't Pervis the player he was 2 years ago? I would argue the formation makes him look that way

Minteh can be better than solly was.

I think on balance there are some better, some worse and some as good as that side. But we were playing Brentford not chelsea. And that team would be top 3 or 4 in this current division. I'm not saying we should be 3rd or 4th now but i certainly dont think we should be 10th and heading backwards which with the current formation we will be

 

[Bozza]

Just to add - I'm not some huge Hurzeler advocate, I'm just struggling to understand the Bournemouth line of debate.

 

[ROSM]

Sorry - I've been out all afternoon. Lots of posts I'd like to reply to individually, but it would all get a bit dull.

And @Kalimantan Gull has made some of the points I would anyway: Bournemouth have spent the best part of £250m, have an experienced, well-regarded manager who is light years ahead of what we have, and they are 1 (one) point ahead of us.

I'll also add that for all Iraola's supposed superiority, Hurzeler did the double over him this season.

But, I also agree with many of those who triumph Bournemouth's style of play which, at times, is fast, dynamic and vibrant. How much of that is down to the players recruited and how much down to the manager?

Bournemouth seem to have far more fast, powerful, athletic players than we do. I'm not sure how many of our players I'd say fit that description - not many.

And their football may be more vibrant than our own right now but, as the league table shows, it's similarly effective to our own.

I can't imagine Bournemouth fans went home happy when they lost at Leicester (we didn't) nor lost at home to Ipswich (we didn't) nor losing twice to shitly-managed Brighton...

Football is an entertainment business (performance not points eh ) it depends if their team played in an impressive entertaining way.

I would also say the recruitment didn't lend itself to a FH formation/tactics set up

 

[Balders]

Were you privy to TB’s expectations then? Not quite sure why he would mention top 5 a month ago if true.

His expectations were officially published a month ago in the latest Accounts which are freely available in the public domain, so privy in that sense, just like the rest of us.

His expectations are to become an established top-ten club with a stretch goal of European qualification - I did post same in a new thread earlier.

I believe the top 5 quote was an interview at Cheltenham and was a response to a loaded question, so he's hardly going to be negative!

 

[Pliny the Gull]

Because RDZ came in and took over a Potter team that were flying high, scoring for fun and well organised.

Fab has had to take over a team that were awful towards the back end of last season. We'll probably finish with more points this season than we did last season under what was apparently prime De Zerbi.

Fair point.
RDZ did have Europe, same injurie issues in January however.
Also no large expenditure to work with. But we know the reason for that.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

My online reading of FH St Pauli stuff last summer, full of praise articles, was that some defenders/2 pivots were set up so that when they were in possession, at least two or more pacy players were stationed in the centre line vicinity. With half an eye and shaped to cover any opposition transition. Covering and disrupting counter attacks, to allow for defensive support to arrive.

That’s fine if you have that type of player. We don’t.

You look at Brentford’s first goal. Easy diagonal ball then a foot race, because we are too high.

The whole win the ball as high up as possible may work in Bundersliga 2, but once teams/coaches in the PL have worked it out, it has a limited future because, they know for this to work the team has to be in a condensed/tighter shape, therefore a well-placed pass Brentford’s first goal or hopeful clearance Chelsea away, we’re struggling.

 

[Weststander]

I think Dunk now playing in a RDZ formation would better than he does under FH

Why isn't Pervis the player he was 2 years ago? I would argue the formation makes him look that way

Minteh can be better than solly was.

I think on balance there are some better, some worse and some as good as that side. But we were playing Brentford not chelsea. And that team would be top 3 or 4 in this current division. I'm not saying we should be 3rd or 4th now but i certainly dont think we should be 10th and heading backwards which with the current formation we will be

Estupinan’s game went down a few notches from summer 2023 onwards, so under both RDZ and FH. During 2022/23 I recall pundits saying he was as good as any LB in the PL. Misses Caicedo? They dovetailed effectively.