[News] A woman is a woman.

[Curious Orange]

I don't think any religion says what pronouns we should or shouldn't use

Given when most religious texts were written I doubt it ever occurred to them that someday it was something anyone would actually have opinions about!

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

There’s something about a law that defies what can be said about a biological reality that makes me uneasy .

On consideration that’s more of a comment about my personal instinctive broader reservations about state control though.

I certainly wish no ill on trans people, and it probably wouldn’t take much to persuade me that that particular law is there for good reason.

And to be clear My own real life way of referring to trans people I meet probably doesn’t differ from yours.

I don't know enough about this entire subject to think that my opinion should matter, but it seems to me that the law ruling on this is a bit like the law deciding that Rwanda is a safe country. The law can say what it likes but it doesn't make it so.

 

[Triggaaar]

Given when most religious texts were written I doubt it ever occurred to them that someday it was something anyone would actually have opinions about!

I don't see why not, God is all knowing

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

And that’s the problem with those on the extremes in lots of areas. I can imagine there are a lot of trans men and woman - going about their lives - that are thinking ‘not in my name’ with some of what we see and hear coming from such groups.

One of the senior nurses in the hospital I visited today was possibly TG. I say possibly. She could simply have been a tall elegant woman with certain attributes. In my narcosis -induced slightly disinhibited state I got the urge to ask her what she thought about the change in the law. Fortunately I came to my senses quickly. My next instinct, which I also quashed, was to ask if she was OK.

I do hope that the necessary contingency some of us have highlighted is fleshed out quickly.
I can now understand quite starkly the reality of fears expressed by one or two TG posters on this thread.
I can imagine ignorance and curiosity driving casual cruelty,
especially now that some folk may imaging the have a legal right to know 'what's what'.

 

[South Stand Bonfire]

I don't see why not, God is all knowing

That proves that God is a woman then.

 

[GT49er]

I don't know enough about this entire subject to think that my opinion should matter, but it seems to me that the law ruling on this is a bit like the law deciding that Rwanda is a safe country. The law can say what it likes but it doesn't make it so.

Very different - one is law, as decided and defined by the High Court. The other is a government policy (never actioned) that Rwanda was somewhere safe enough for illegal immigrants to be sent there. There really isn't much correlation between the two.

 

[PascalGroß Tips]

One of the senior nurses in the hospital I visited today was possibly TG. I say possibly. She could simply have been a tall elegant woman with certain attributes. In my narcosis -induced slightly disinhibited state I got the urge to ask her what she thought about the change in the law. Fortunately I came to my senses quickly. My next instinct, which I also quashed, was to ask if she was OK.

I do hope that the necessary contingency some of us have highlighted is fleshed out quickly.
I can now understand quite starkly the reality of fears expressed by one or two TG posters on this thread.
I can imagine ignorance and curiosity driving casual cruelty,
especially now that some folk may imaging the have a legal right to know 'what's what'.

It’s very difficult. I hold no prejudices whatsoever. Many years ago, a work colleague who had become a good friend, called me to tell me he was gay. I hadn’t had any suspicions. I was the first person he told outside his immediate family … I was pretty chuffed at that.

I’ve had a similar situation with another friend in more recent years.

And then when queuing outside the Amex before England v Spain for the 1/4 Final in the Women’s Euros, I realised the person ahead of me in the queue was a TG woman. She was on her own and so me being me just decided to try and have a conversation about how great the tournament had been and England’s chances. She really didn’t want to talk … to me anyway … so I just left it and hoped I hadn’t made her feel uncomfortable.

 

[AstroSloth]

I think it's unfair to label these women as anti trans, surly it's more a case of them being pro women which is not the same but the trans lobby like to paint them that way. There are times when it is important fro women to have women only spaces & yes there is far too much talk about toilets.

If that was the case then people would be celebrating the win for women.

Instead they're gloating at the trans people it affects (looking at you J.K. Rowling).

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It’s very difficult. I hold no prejudices whatsoever. Many years ago, a work colleague who had become a good friend, called me to tell me he was gay. I hadn’t had any suspicions. I was the first person he told outside his immediate family … I was pretty chuffed at that.

I’ve had a similar situation with another friend in more recent years.

And then when queuing outside the Amex before England v Spain for the 1/4 Final in the Women’s Euros, I realised the person ahead of me in the queue was a TG woman. She was on her own and so me being me just decided to try and have a conversation about how great the tournament had been and England’s chances. She really didn’t want to talk … to me anyway … so I just left it and hoped I hadn’t made her feel uncomfortable.

All that resonates.
I can remember, back in the day, being rebuffed by some lesbians at a gig, who were friends of a gay women and her partner with whom we had gone to the gig.
Bit off, I though. Then I remembered this:

From 19 minutes

 

[Curious Orange]

One final point on the single sex space issue from me.

Females can, understandably, be uncomfortable/feel threatened if males are present in female only spaces; trans women can also be uncomfortable/feel threatened in male spaces.

The first statement is more problematic than the second*, and I say that because you never hear the equivalent statements made in respect of trans men. This is primarily an issue about the presence of males.

Having said that, I fully expect the updated guidance to encourage the provision of gender neutral facilities where practicable, which we are beginning to get already - the Spectrum Leisure Centre in Guildford has had communal showers and individual changing cubicles (as well as single sex spaces) since it was built in the '90s for example.




* Blokes avoid each other in the bogs and actively stay as far away from each other as they can. If there are two men and six urinals on the wall, urinals one and six get stood at!

 

[fly high]

If that was the case then people would be celebrating the win for women.

Instead they're gloating at the trans people it affects (looking at you J.K. Rowling).

Maybe it's because the trans extremists have been so aggressive and threatening. Shutting down debate and trying, sometimes succeeding, in destroying people's careers.

 

[Triggaaar]

That proves that God is a woman then.

And she's got no issue with others becoming women

 

[Triggaaar]

If that was the case then people would be celebrating the win for women.

Instead they're gloating at the trans people it affects (looking at you J.K. Rowling).

JK Rowling can't tell the difference between having a **nt and being a **nt.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Maybe it's because the trans extremists have been so aggressive and threatening. Shutting down debate and trying, sometimes succeeding, in destroying people's careers.

You are not wrong on the aggression and threats but this is a minority. They are a protected group though which is important.

You must also acknowledge that the other side has done exactly this also. There is so much transphobia online, it's disgusting.

 

[AstroSloth]

Maybe it's because the trans extremists have been so aggressive and threatening. Shutting down debate and trying, sometimes succeeding, in destroying people's careers.

And you think TERFS haven't been doing that?

If TERFS weren't so aggressive with their hatred for trans women then trans activists never would have needed to become so "aggressive".

TERFS have never been interested in debate or women's safety, only hurting trans women.

 

[Curious Orange]

TERFS have never been interested in debate or women's safety, only hurting trans women.

That is quite a claim to make without evidence? It may well be true of a minority of individuals, but I'd suggest it is quite inflammatory of you to suggest it applies to all of them.

This discussion thread has by and large been informative, respectful and understanding, lets keep it that way please.

 

[beorhthelm]

And you think TERFS haven't been doing that?

If TERFS weren't so aggressive with their hatred for trans women then trans activists never would have needed to become so "aggressive".

TERFS have never been interested in debate or women's safety, only hurting trans women.

were there protests with TERFS openly calling for harm to trans individuals?

i've seen online spats and the aggression and threats are mostly one way. probably from the testosterone.

 

[Hugo Rune]

were there protests with TERFS openly calling for harm to trans individuals?

i've seen online spats and the aggression and threats are mostly one way. probably from the testosterone.

In regards to your first question, I've not seen any evidence of this. Mainly because the people who started this or who are the true TERFS are academics. They are way too smart and principled to engage in that sort of behaviour. However, their viewpoint is derived from what seems to be a profound hatred of men and a cruel disregard of the science behind gender disphoria.

But, there is a lot of profound hatred. transphobia and nasty rhetoric coming from (what seems to me to be) heterosexual men who have been gaslit by TERFS, politicians and the media whipping up the culture war.

This is really strange because I suspect most biological women realise that threats to their safety are 99.9% from men and not trans-women. I'd even go so far to say that it would be profoundly more dangerous to have trans-men (biological women) in the women only spaces than trans-women.

 

[carlzeiss]

And you think TERFS haven't been doing that?

If TERFS weren't so aggressive with their hatred for trans women then trans activists never would have needed to become so "aggressive".

TERFS have never been interested in debate or women's safety, only hurting trans women.

Suggesting that skeptics should have their heads chopped off though might not be the best way to convince them to change their opinions .

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

One final point on the single sex space issue from me.

Females can, understandably, be uncomfortable/feel threatened if males are present in female only spaces; trans women can also be uncomfortable/feel threatened in male spaces.

The first statement is more problematic than the second*, and I say that because you never hear the equivalent statements made in respect of trans men. This is primarily an issue about the presence of males.

Having said that, I fully expect the updated guidance to encourage the provision of gender neutral facilities where practicable, which we are beginning to get already - the Spectrum Leisure Centre in Guildford has had communal showers and individual changing cubicles (as well as single sex spaces) since it was built in the '90s for example.




* Blokes avoid each other in the bogs and actively stay as far away from each other as they can. If there are two men and six urinals on the wall, urinals one and six get stood at!

Yep. It mostly all about fear of predatory males in female-only spaces.
Males without male genitalia
(although a bloke could just put on a dress and pretend to be a lady......and so on.....but we already have laws for that, though).

And yep. Proliferation of gender neutral facilities (it is mainly about toilets and changing rooms at the end of the day).
Bring it on.

My first experience of a gender neutral space was a sauna in a hotel in Germany in the late 80s.
There I was, first in, trunks under towel,
and after 5 minutes two women pop on.
Mountains of tit, muff and hairy arm pit.
Not the batting of an eyelid.
It was a learning experience.
I felt indecently overdressed and did not make the same mistake the next time.