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[Football] The Harry Kane Problem



T

thbjenkins

Active member
Mar 12, 2014
162
Lancing
Eeyore said:
Kane is far from selfish and one criticism is that he spends too much time defending and dropping deep.

England do need a change though. Unless a new manager can use him properly in a more attacking set up.
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That is the selfish part though, the dropping deep. He's actually quite a lazy player these days.

This England team is rich in creative midfielders, we don't need him to play that role. We need someone to lead the line, actually get on the end of crosses in the 6 yard box (The one time he actually did this is where he scored his only goal of the tournament).

It's no coincidence Watkins scored against the Netherlands by actually running in behind.

It's worked well for him in the past when he's been paired with Sterling/Son who do that running for him in a team with Phillips/Henderson in the midfield.

Southgate is either tactically inept, or doesn't have the balls to drop him/tell him otherwise (I suspect it's a little of both).
 




R

Reddleman

Well-known member
May 17, 2017
2,022
Farehamseagull said:
He's had 1 touch in the box in the two European Championship finals!!! 1 touch!!!

Not good enough. In the knockout stages of all the tournaments he's played in he's been shit. Every time he's apparently got an injury/is unfit. Get fitter then!!

His 66 England goals (22 penalties) have come against:

San Marino 5 Albania 4 Bulgaria 4 Germany 4 Malta 4 Montenegro 4 France 3 Italy 3 Panama 3 Ukraine 3 Czech Republic 2 Denmark 2 Kosovo 2 Lithuania 2 North Macedonia 2 Poland 2 Scotland 2 Switzerland 2 Tunisia 2 Andorra 1 Bosnia and Herzegovina 1 Colombia 1 Croatia 1 Hungary 1 Netherlands 1 Nigeria 1 Senegal 1 Slovakia 1 Slovenia 1 Turkey 1

Of the 11 goals he's scored against proper opposition (Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands) - 7 of them were penalties!

He's a fraud. Flat track bully - can't do it in big games for club or country.
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Just shows what statistics can do.

Hes scored 9 knockout stage tournament goals that’s more than Rooney, Shearer and Owen combined. Of these only three were penalties. He’s scored in two semi finals, he’s also scored three goals in four quarter final appearances.

Rooney 1 KO goal (1 pen)
Owen 4 KO goal (0 pen)
Shearer 2 KO goal (1 pen)
Lineker 6 KO goal (2 pen)
Kane 9 KO goal (3 pen)

Stats don’t lie.
 


Nobby Cybergoat

Nobby Cybergoat

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
8,135
Farehamseagull said:
He's had 1 touch in the box in the two European Championship finals!!! 1 touch!!!
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Is that necessarily his fault?

I mean, he could have dropped deeper, worked the channels etc, but it seems likely, he was instructed to stay up there.

Haaland has stats like that all the time, where he barely gets a kick, but wins the match and that's in a dominant team. It's just normal for a centre forward.

The flat track bully thing is a bit silly
 




R

Reddleman

Well-known member
May 17, 2017
2,022
Nobby Cybergoat said:
Well I think they do, because you've produced stats suggesting the player is brilliant and the other fella has produced stats suggesting he's shit
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When it comes to his goal scoring at major tournaments the stats don’t lie, he’s the best we have ever had and the penalty claim is a myth.

As to his overall quality that’s subjective.
 




Baldseagull

Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
11,759
Crawley
Pavilionaire said:
Has Potter got the ability, the stature, the balls to drop Kane, Pickford, consign Walker, Maguire, Henderson to the dustbin and build a new squad with a new captain?

Southgate has raised the bar, he's got so much right that his predecessors got wrong. This is a tough job.
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I think Potter would have the nous to try and play a way that could create chances for Kane, if he didn't have the balls to drop him.
Potter would fail in other ways though probably, play Bellingham as a full back or other nonsense.
 








O

Originunknown

BINFEST'ING
Aug 30, 2011
3,152
SUSSEX
Held us back, should do the decent thing as 'captain' and retire from international football. No leadership, selfishly playing with an injury and didn't look like he cared at fulltime.
 


H

Han Solo

Well-known member
May 25, 2024
1,706
Baldseagull said:
I think Potter would have the nous to try and play a way that could create chances for Kane, if he didn't have the balls to drop him.
Potter would fail in other ways though probably, play Bellingham as a full back or other nonsense.
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Bellingham inverted left-wing back. Subscribe.
 






M

Milano

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2012
3,596
Sussex but not by the sea
Farehamseagull said:
He's had 1 touch in the box in the two European Championship finals!!! 1 touch!!!

Not good enough. In the knockout stages of all the tournaments he's played in he's been shit. Every time he's apparently got an injury/is unfit. Get fitter then!!

His 66 England goals (22 penalties) have come against:

San Marino 5 Albania 4 Bulgaria 4 Germany 4 Malta 4 Montenegro 4 France 3 Italy 3 Panama 3 Ukraine 3 Czech Republic 2 Denmark 2 Kosovo 2 Lithuania 2 North Macedonia 2 Poland 2 Scotland 2 Switzerland 2 Tunisia 2 Andorra 1 Bosnia and Herzegovina 1 Colombia 1 Croatia 1 Hungary 1 Netherlands 1 Nigeria 1 Senegal 1 Slovakia 1 Slovenia 1 Turkey 1

Of the 11 goals he's scored against proper opposition (Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands) - 7 of them were penalties!

He's a fraud. Flat track bully - can't do it in big games for club or country.
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Your last sentence, I’ve been saying that for years. Massively overrated and what’s worse he hamstrings the way we play.
 




F

Farehamseagull

Solly March Fan Club
Nov 22, 2007
14,716
Sarisbury Green, Southampton
Reddleman said:
Just shows what statistics can do.

Hes scored 9 knockout stage tournament goals that’s more than Rooney, Shearer and Owen combined. Of these only three were penalties. He’s scored in two semi finals, he’s also scored three goals in four quarter final appearances.

Rooney 1 KO goal (1 pen)
Owen 4 KO goal (0 pen)
Shearer 2 KO goal (1 pen)
Lineker 6 KO goal (2 pen)
Kane 9 KO goal (3 pen)

Stats don’t lie.
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No they don't lie and you've kind of helped prove my point with your post. Of those 9 knockout goals, 6 have come against:

Ukraine x 2
Columbia x 1 (pen)
Denmark x 1
Senegal x 1
Slovakia x 1

And against top level opposition, just 3, 2 of which were penalties:

Netherlands x 1 (pen)
France x 1 (pen)
Germany x 1

And I'm not sure of the relevance of bringing in Rooney, Owen, Shearer and Lineker's stats is but as you have, Kane has played nearly as many knockout games on his own as those four put together so he should have more goals!:

Rooney - 5 knockout games
Owen - 4 knockout games
Shearer - 3 knockout games
Lineker - 5 knockout games

Total - 17 knockout games

Kane - 14 knockout games

So all of them except Rooney (who was also over rated, padded his stats in friendlies and qualifiers and didn't perform in tournament after peaking at 18 - but that's another debate), had better scoring ratio's in knockout games than Kane.
 




M

Milano

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2012
3,596
Sussex but not by the sea
Compare with Morata last night, Kane is the better striker on paper, the difference is that Morata ran himself into the ground for 65 mins, Kane jogged about for 60, he didn’t once engage the player with the ball, didn’t attempt a tackle (actually he tried once and got booked), didn’t win a header. If that was due to injury then it’s even worse on Southgate. He shouldn’t have started, having done so and produced ‘that’ he should have been hooked at HT.

Kane wasn’t the only one though, I thought Walker was crap too.
 


GT49er

GT49er

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 1, 2009
48,389
Gloucester
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Greaves would have played but got injured in the quarter final. Missed the semi. Was 'fit' for the final but Alf stuck with the ringer - one Geoff Hurst.

Greaves was pissy about it, and played only 3 more times for England (in 67) despite scoring another 107 more goals for Spurs over the following four seasons.

Not really he same as the Kane situation. Ironically if he had been put on the bench yesterday he would have taking it in good grace.
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I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that Kane would have taken it with good grace had he been benched yesterday.
 




Nottseagull

Nottseagull

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2006
8,462
The Tory stronghold of Mansfield (majority increas
Nobby Cybergoat said:
Well I think they do, because you've produced stats suggesting the player is brilliant and the other fella has produced stats suggesting he's shit
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1000001064.jpg
 
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Javeaseagull

Javeaseagull

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 22, 2014
2,666
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Greaves would have played but got injured in the quarter final. Missed the semi. Was 'fit' for the final but Alf stuck with the ringer - one Geoff Hurst.

Greaves was pissy about it, and played only 3 more times for England (in 67) despite scoring another 107 more goals for Spurs over the following four seasons.

Not really he same as the Kane situation. Ironically if he had been put on the bench yesterday he would have taking it in good grace.
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The reason Geoff Hurst played instead of Jimmy Greaves was because there were no subs in 1966.
 


MJsGhost

MJsGhost

Oooh Matron, I'm an
NSC Patron
Jun 26, 2009
4,968
East
Reddleman said:
Just shows what statistics can do.

Hes scored 9 knockout stage tournament goals that’s more than Rooney, Shearer and Owen combined. Of these only three were penalties. He’s scored in two semi finals, he’s also scored three goals in four quarter final appearances.

Rooney 1 KO goal (1 pen)
Owen 4 KO goal (0 pen)
Shearer 2 KO goal (1 pen)
Lineker 6 KO goal (2 pen)
Kane 9 KO goal (3 pen)

Stats don’t lie.
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A bit of context on the stats helps too.

Taking those 9 KO goals for Kane, here's who they are against:

WC 2018 - Round of 16 – Colombia (pen)
Euro 2020 – Round of 16 – Germany
Euro 2020 – Quarter Final – Ukraine (x2)
Euro 2020 – Semi Final – Denmark
WC 2022 - Round of 16 – Senegal
WC 2022 – Quarter final – France (pen)
Euro 2024 – Round of 16 - Slovakia
Euro 2024 – Semi Final – Netherlands (pen)

Penalty goals could just as likely be scored by someone else, so although it takes nerve to put them away, they don't reflect performance in a game in the same way as a goal from open play. Kane's only non-penalty goal against a recognised 'big' team is vs Germany at Euro 2020.

Someone with more time, or access to a stats database might be able to come up with the number of KO games Kane has played - it may be close to the number of Rooney, Shearer and Owen combined.

I CBA to go through all of the rest, but to look at Lineker as he's next highest on your list:

WC ‘86 - Round of 16 – Paraguay (x2)
WC ‘86 - Quarter Final – Argentina
WC ’90 - Quarter Final – Cameroon (x2, both pens)
WC ‘90 – Semi Final – Germany

2 KO non-penalty goals against big teams (both went on to win the tournament). I'm guessing here, but would the Belgium game in '90 be the only knock-out game Lineker played in that he didn't score in?

I don't have the time to work it out, but I'm certain Kane's goals will have come (on average) against lower ranking teams simply due to the expansion of tournaments meaning more space for poorer teams. He probably has fewer (KO) goals per (KO) game than Lineker too.

TL/DR?

Kane has played a lot more KO games than the others mentioned, yet still only managed one goal in open play against a recognised 'big' team. He does have a lot of qualifying goals though - mostly against pretty ordinary opponents.

IMO, the stats back up the big game bottler and/or flat track bully label.

I wouldn't just cast him aside though - let the next manager see if he can get a tune out of him / wants to set the team up in a way that suits him. He's very nearly 31, so he is definitely not going to be around for long - 1 more tournament maybe and hopefully not as plan A.
 


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