[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

armchairclubber said:

Exactly.



I think where we differ is that I don't think it should or necessarily would be seen as picking a fight with America for the UK to abide by International Law.

Other Nations have done so such as Spain. Explaining that they will not hold a hypocritical international position over wars and Human Rights in Ukraine and Palestine.

If there would be some economic concerns for the UK in stopping or reducing its arms sales or other sanctions then that would be more than acceptable to me over the UKs continued support of war offences by Israel.

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chickens said:

Our arms sales to Israel are negligible.

US 65.6%
Germany 29.7%
Italy 4.7%

Is how Israel arms itself. Your stance on this is rather like blaming Macron for the Russia/Ukraine conflict, or the Dalai Lama for tensions in Kashmir, it’s logically incoherent and frankly baffling.

For the first time in over a decade we have adults in government. Our country has many pressing needs, not least putting out the bin fires set by our Conservative chums.

You and those of your ilk effectively seem to want to stand on the decks of H.M.S. Britain with icebergs looming, claiming that our top and immediate priority should be discovering the fate of the crew of the Mary Celeste. Most on the ship would prefer we dodge the icebergs.

If the US changes course, we will change course with them, but I’d be hugely surprised if we stepped out of sync with America on this, and this should absolutely not be the focus of the British government. Israel has an elected government, and Palestine has done nothing to usurp Hamas’s leadership, so I have to assume Hamas rules with the consent of its people. Should it not, then its geographically close neighbours should be assisting them. Western involvement in regime change rarely ends well.

In the same way that I wouldn’t wade into the middle of a boundary dispute between two individuals I don’t know, our government’s focus should be domestic first, international second.

Spain is not beholden to the US for its financial and military security in the same way that the UK is. The EU is a powerful trading bloc that we have isolated ourselves from. America, for us, is the only game in town. We are committed to our role as Scrappy Doo to America’s Scooby as a result of our political choices.

I’m not going to engage on this subject any more, I feel we understand each other’s position and where we disagree.

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rippleman said:

This would suggest that you would support us stopping the supply of arms to Ukraine with the money saved being spent on our NHS, our schools etc. And that basically we should reduce our overseas aid budget to zero. That's an interesting stance but not one I could get behind. That would be
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chickens said:

I’m not going to engage on this subject any more, I feel we understand each other’s position and where we disagree.

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chickens said:

Ah, whataboutery.

On the contrary, one conflict is in Europe, with a clear aggressor, and a threat to European stability.

The Israel/Gaza conflict takes place in a different geopolitical region, with dual aggressors, and plenty of nations around able to mediate should both sides wish to mediate.

However, we both know neither do, so until both sides have governments that desire peace, there will be no peace.

in Ukraine, I would hope that we would continue to provide the support that Ukraine asks for until Russia is returned to its pre-annexation of Crimea borders, then an agreement is reached for it to financially compensate Ukraine in a manner that allows Ukraine to rebuild its infrastructure.

A quick glance at a map will tell you that there are many better placed than us to mediate between Israel and Palestine. Ukraine is a sovereign European nation. There’s a significant difference. We should seek stability within our geopolitical bloc.

And while we should absolutely continue to support Ukraine, I still would not want our government’s primary focus to be on it. We have elected a Prime Minister of Britain, I’m happy for our Foreign Secretary to devote considerable resource to Ukraine, but I don’t want our domestic government paralysed by that conflict.

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Zeberdi said:

Yes, ‘Judaism’ is a ‘religion/belief not a race’ but being Jewish is a distinct identity separate from that and is NOT a religion.

I’ve posted much on this thread about the demographic make up of Israeli Jews which is diverse and consists of various religious sub-groups but the majority of the population of Jews in Israel are secular (ie non-religious).

The one thing Jews don’t agree on though, is how to identify themselves as a group because there is little homogeneity.

So if being Jewish isn’t a religion, what is it? Describing Jews as a ‘race’ is problematic for many Jews - not least because defining Jews as a ‘race’ was the basis upon which Hitler exterminated 6 million Jews as being “racially impure”. There is some legitimate question as to whether Jews are a ‘race’ anyway given the global diversity of Jews in different cultures. Jews are an incredibly diasporic people (ie globally scattered outside Palestine) and even amongst themselves there is no shared understanding of what Jews are - A people? A nation? A race? A culture? An Ethnicity?

Personally, I identify with the ‘culture and ethnicity’ aspect of a Jewish identity, specifically Ashkenazi, the population of Eastern Jews but on a broader level, part of the ‘People of Israel’. Even though I may not regard ‘Jews’ as a ‘race’, there are genetic traits that identify me as a direct offspring of Ashkenazi - I recently had genetic testing for certain cancer risks a few months back because Ashkenazi Jews in particular often carry a gene fault that places them at very high risks for certain cancers compared to non-Jewish people - so perhaps the ‘racial’ element is in the biological ancestry but to describe Jews as a ‘race’ is considered very problematic for Jews in a post-Holocaust world.

Suffice to say, conflating the Jewish identity with Judaism cancels out millions of Jews worldwide and those in Israel who do not adhere to religious practice.

3. Identity

Overwhelmingly, Jews in Israel feel a strong sense of belonging to the Jewish people and are proud to be Jewish. Fully 93% of Jews say they are proud of

www.pewresearch.org

TL;DR
Being Jewish and Judaism are entirely different things, only the latter being a religion - but apart from that, don’t bother, it’s complicated.

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:J) said:

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armchairclubber said:

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armchairclubber said:

This is what happens when you don't stand up against evil.

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Psychobilly freakout said:

I give up, a good man could turn bad with all the injustice in the world, makes you wonder about the human race.
disgusting.

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More than half Dems boycott Netanyahu lie-fest – but govt replaces them with extras

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