[News] A woman is a woman.

[BadFish]

I've done some research, thanks for the prompt and looked at the placards

They seem to be very angry with women and especially JK Rowling

Seem like a nice bunch of lads

There are none so blind . . .

Anyway, back on track . . .

 

[Curious Orange]

I think I have said before that I didn't fully understand who the trans community was, and there doesn't appear to be a consistent answer as to how it is made up, as the grouping appears to be largely self-selecting and most definitely nebulous. Certainly I don't think anyone on this thread has attempted to explain it.

I don't think I'd be entirely correct in saying that the trans community consisted of people who present to greater or lesser extent as the opposite sex, but that outwardly seems like a good starting point. As far as I can tell there are many reasons why people would choose to do this, including, but not limited to, dysphoria and other mental health issues, fetish, paraphilia, 'feelings', fashion, political reasons, peer pressure, role-playing etc.

It strikes me that the people with dysphoria are the least likely of those who choose to present as the opposite sex to have been holding up those appalling signs at the recent protests, and are absolutely deserving of wider societies empathy and understanding, I also don't believe for an instant that they make up the majority of the trans community.

You can all make your own minds up as to whether you should have sympathy and understanding for people who have any other reasons for presenting the way they do.

 

[BadFish]

I think I have said before that I didn't fully understand who the trans community was, and there doesn't appear to be a consistent answer as to how it is made up, as the grouping appears to be largely self-selecting and most definitely nebulous. Certainly I don't think anyone on this thread has attempted to explain it.

I don't think I'd be entirely correct in saying that the trans community consisted of people who present to greater or lesser extent as the opposite sex, but that outwardly seems like a good starting point. As far as I can tell there are many reasons why people would choose to do this, including, but not limited to, dysphoria and other mental health issues, fetish, paraphilia, 'feelings', fashion, political reasons, peer pressure, role-playing etc.

It strikes me that the people with dysphoria are the least likely of those who choose to present as the opposite sex to have been holding up those appalling signs at the recent protests, and are absolutely deserving of wider societies empathy and understanding, I also don't believe for an instant that they make up the majority of the trans community.

You can all make your own minds up as to whether you should have sympathy and understanding for people who have any other reasons for presenting the way they do.

I would guess that 99% of people across all those categories would like nothing more than to just go about their lives in the way that makes them comfortable and happy.

What I don't get is why people have been persuaded they should be intolerant of this group. If they can't manage understanding or sympathy then good old fashioned minding your own business is probably the best way.

I know to varying degrees about half a dozen people who sit in various parts of your categories and cannot fathom why anyone would have anything against them. Let alone why people would choose not to tolerate them.

 

[Curious Orange]

I would guess that 99% of people across all those categories would like nothing more than to just go about their lives in the way that makes them comfortable and happy.

What I don't get is why people have been persuaded they should be intolerant of this group. If they can't manage understanding or sympathy then good old fashioned minding your own business is probably the best way.

I know to varying degrees about half a dozen people who sit in various parts of your categories and cannot fathom why anyone would have anything against them. Let alone why people would choose not to tolerate them.

Indeed, and most people aren't problematic, and most people aren't intolerant of people going about their business.

 

[BadFish]

Indeed, and most people aren't problematic, and most people aren't intolerant of people going about their business.

Yes very true.

I would do well to remember this I think.

Thanks for the reminder

 

[DJ NOBO]

I would guess that 99% of people across all those categories would like nothing more than to just go about their lives in the way that makes them comfortable and happy.

What I don't get is why people have been persuaded they should be intolerant of this group. If they can't manage understanding or sympathy then good old fashioned minding your own business is probably the best way.

I know to varying degrees about half a dozen people who sit in various parts of your categories and cannot fathom why anyone would have anything against them. Let alone why people would choose not to tolerate them.

What do you mean by the word intolerant? social intolerance is one thing, intolerance with regard to what many women see as protecting their rights, is another .

 

[Hugo Rune]

What do you mean by the word intolerant?

I'm guessing he means this post but I could be wrong.

 

[DJ NOBO]

I'm guessing he means this post but I could be wrong.

View attachment 200716

What‘s wrong with asking a poster to clarify an Important part of their argument ? I have even given a reason why I have asked.
Misunderstandings over definitions cause all kinds of problems.
Also - you asked me to clarify a word I used earlier, and I was totally cool with it.
* If I knew how to use the shrug emoji I would insert it here *

 

[BadFish]

What do you mean by the word intolerant? social intolerance is one thing, intolerance with what regard to what many women see as protecting their rights, is another .

Yeah that post with assorted likes gave the impression that people are intolerant of certain groups.

 

[DJ NOBO]

Yeah that post with assorted likes gave the impression that people are intolerant of certain groups.

If you don’t want to answer my question above that’s fine. It is just confusing because in the context of this debate, that word has a very wide scope.
At one extreme you could be saying large numbers of people are hateful ’tranniebashers‘.
Or you yourself could be a mysoginist (not saying you are are btw) writing off the concerns of large numbers of women As them being intolerant.

 

[Hugo Rune]

What‘s wrong with asking a poster to clarify an Important part of their argument ?

Nothing at all. I was just suggesting an answer. Chill.

 

[BadFish]

If you don’t want to answer my question above that’s fine. It is just confusing because in the context of this debate, that word has a very wide scope.
At one extreme you could be saying large numbers of people are hateful ’tranniebashers‘.
Or you yourself could be a mysoginist (not saying you are are btw) writing off the concerns of large numbers of women As them being intolerant.

Yeah that's fair. Sorry wasn't dodging the question just on the phone.

In answer to your question I am guessing there is a wide ranging intolerance around this issue. I can't speak for anyone about where their intolerances sit and I am not accusing anyone on here of being intolerant. I would be interesting to hear clarification of who @dsr-burnley is intolerant of and in what way but only because he has offered that he feels this way.

I would also add that I believe that the fact there is so much talk about this issue that surely affects such a small number of people suggests that their is a fairly hight level of intolerance of trans and associated people.

Do you disagree?

I guess it comes back to this idea that I struggle with the idea that this is about protecting women. If that was the focus we would be focusing our attention on situations and places that are more dangerous for women. If you take NSC as an example, we have pretty regular threads about this issue but I don't remember many, if any, about domestic violence, date rape.

I am also suspicious of those who wish to shift this discussion onto once single group of people who are being combative and operating at the fringes, all while not bothering to look into both sides of that argument. This suggests that sides have been taken (and clearly with the poster earlier and assumption that anyone in the discussion sits on one side of the fringe or other).

 

[WATFORD zero]

I guess it comes back to this idea that I struggle with the idea that this is about protecting women. If that was the focus we would be focusing our attention on situations and places that are more dangerous for women. If you take NSC as an example, we have pretty regular threads about this issue but I don't remember many, if any, about domestic violence, date rape.

This is where I am. My daughter has just sent me this link for people who disagree with the High Court judgment.

https://goodlawproject.org/crowdfun...d_crowdfunder_transhr&utm_medium=social_media

 

[BadFish]

This is where I am. My daughter has just sent me this link for people who disagree with the High Court judgment.

https://goodlawproject.org/crowdfun...d_crowdfunder_transhr&utm_medium=social_media

The fact that this decision making did not include any trans voices is highly problematic.

It has clearly caused confusion and concern for the trans community, hopefully they can get some answers and input into the solutions in the near future.

 

[DJ NOBO]

Yeah that's fair. Sorry wasn't dodging the question just on the phone.

In answer to your question I am guessing there is a wide ranging intolerance around this issue. I can't speak for anyone about where their intolerances sit and I am not accusing anyone on here of being intolerant. I would be interesting to hear clarification of who @dsr-burnley is intolerant of and in what way but only because he has offered that he feels this way.

I would also add that I believe that the fact there is so much talk about this issue that surely affects such a small number of people suggests that their is a fairly hight level of intolerance of trans and associated people.

Do you disagree?

I guess it comes back to this idea that I struggle with the idea that this is about protecting women. If that was the focus we would be focusing our attention on situations and places that are more dangerous for women. If you take NSC as an example, we have pretty regular threads about this issue but I don't remember many, if any, about domestic violence, date rape.

I am also suspicious of those who wish to shift this discussion onto once single group of people who are being combative and operating at the fringes, all while not bothering to look into both sides of that argument. This suggests that sides have been taken (and clearly with the poster earlier and assumption that anyone in the discussion sits on one side of the fringe or other).

I don’t believe a large swell of the population hate trans people because they’re different or whatever. most probably think “they can do what they like , I don’t care”.

They draw the line though when trans people’s demands infringe on other sections of society.

But everyone’s perception is based on all kinds of evidence and views. I don’t agree with everything you say but I respect that you’ve bothered to look into it. Tbh the people I find slightly annoying on this thread are those who dip in and say “why can’t everyone just be nice “. As if it was that simple.

 

[Curious Orange]

The fact that this decision making did not include any trans voices is highly problematic.

It has clearly caused confusion and concern for the trans community, hopefully they can get some answers and input into the solutions in the near future.

It is understandable people might think that, but only really relevant if the lawyers for the trans lobby groups were going to have made any different legal argmuments to those made in the submissions of the EHRC and Amnesty.

Are people asking why Stonewall didn't request to intervene?

 

[dsr-burnley]

Yeah that's fair. Sorry wasn't dodging the question just on the phone.

In answer to your question I am guessing there is a wide ranging intolerance around this issue. I can't speak for anyone about where their intolerances sit and I am not accusing anyone on here of being intolerant. I would be interesting to hear clarification of who @dsr-burnley is intolerant of and in what way but only because he has offered that he feels this way.

I would also add that I believe that the fact there is so much talk about this issue that surely affects such a small number of people suggests that their is a fairly hight level of intolerance of trans and associated people.

Do you disagree?

I guess it comes back to this idea that I struggle with the idea that this is about protecting women. If that was the focus we would be focusing our attention on situations and places that are more dangerous for women. If you take NSC as an example, we have pretty regular threads about this issue but I don't remember many, if any, about domestic violence, date rape.

I am also suspicious of those who wish to shift this discussion onto once single group of people who are being combative and operating at the fringes, all while not bothering to look into both sides of that argument. This suggests that sides have been taken (and clearly with the poster earlier and assumption that anyone in the discussion sits on one side of the fringe or other).

Since you ask, I am intolerant of people who want women's sports to be opened up to let in biological males, and I am intolerant of those who say that gender and sex are entirely different things before complaining that gender and sex should not have different rules. I am also intolerant of those who demand tolerance of their own particular position while being intolerant of others.

 

[BadFish]

Since you ask, I am intolerant of people who want women's sports to be opened up to let in biological males, and I am intolerant of those who say that gender and sex are entirely different things before complaining that gender and sex should not have different rules. I am also intolerant of those who demand tolerance of their own particular position while being intolerant of others.

Do you come across many of these people? Like, directly rather than hearing about their thoughts from others?

 

[dsr-burnley]

Do you come across many of these people? Like, directly rather than hearing about their thoughts from others?

No, but just because I'm not involved with women's sport doesn't mean I don't need to care if it's ruined by unfair competition.

 

[BadFish]

No, but just because I'm not involved with women's sport doesn't mean I don't need to care if it's ruined by unfair competition.

So the culture wars stuff?

I struggle with that because it doesn't really allow for sporting organisations to work out their own rules or give them time to do so.