[News] Christmas COVID rules fresh from the horses' mouths

[juliant]

Now in a massive argument with some mates over Messenger after one asked how everyone was interpreting the rules.

Anyone else had similar "Letter of the Law vs Spirit of the Law" arguments with friends or family?

Yep. we have friends that intend on having 22 for xmas dinner spread over 6 households but according to them thats ok as there are only 3 bubbles between them ! Crazy.....

Its how people interpret the rules I guess

 

[Mellotron]

Again, re: how going with spirit of the law rather than letter of the law can help;

It's not against the rules to use service stations on the way up. However, if I'm heading to Nottingham on the 23rd, places like Cobham will be absolutely HEAVING. Therefore, I will apply the spirit of the law (reduce chance of infection where possible) by either filling up before leaving, or using smaller service stations, or even - shock, horror - travelling up late the evening before.

Against the letter of the law, but helping to lower risk.

 

[blue-shifted]

Personally I think the government should have banned all household mixing over the xmas period

Now some people would have ignored this instruction. However don't forget ....

1) Lockdowns have mostly been very well observed. Obviously some regions and ages have responded better than others, but on the whole I've been taken aback this year by the sense that people are willing to make sacrifices as long as they feel like everyone else in the same boat. Even if only 50% obeyed the government instruction, and my guess is that it would be more, that would make a significant reduction in the transmission increase we will now see.

2) The vaccine is on the way. It would have been politically possible, to try to sell some sort of belated public holiday maybe in late spring, by moving around some bank holidays etc.

I understand the point that this was a tricky decision. I can't help but think this is a political decision, to avoid being labelled the cancellers of xmas.

 

[Bozza]

Does Germany really now have “record deaths across the whole pandemic”?

Sorry, clumsy wording on my behalf.

I meant that, currently, Germany's death rate is the highest it has been - higher than the first wave, or whatever term you wish to apply to the spring.

The relevance of mentioning that is that you referenced the UK's current death rate in connection with the UK's Christmas proposals.

So, in summary:

UK - deaths high (but some way behind the prior peak), yet Christmas loosening of restrictions.
Germany - deaths higher than the prior peak, indications of Christmas loosening of restrictions.

As I say - all governments of all political persuasions and competence levels are facing the same dilemma.

And I'm not saying the UK has got it right, but I can understand what I believe to be the logic being applied. As ever, I'm just bloody glad I'm not having to make decisions of this magnitude. I can't even decide what to have for lunch.

 

[Bozza]

You seem rather prickly these past few days; I’ll leave you to it.

All fine and dandy here, but thanks for the concern.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

I think that is record deaths for Germany during the pandemic. Remember in the early stages they were more successful at keeping their deaths low compared to other countries. It's less of a jump for them to start having record death numbers in this second wave.

And their Track and Trace is even less successful than ours in certain regions of Germany!

 

[zefarelly]

It's so frustrating. It's just the 4 of us at Christmas anyway so no issues there. I will pop out to see my mum at some point over the 5 days but apart from that a simple bubble

Likewise, 3 of us and garden visits I think. whilst walking the dog.

My brothers living in a pub at present too

 

[Mellotron]

And I'm not saying the UK has got it right, but I can understand what I believe to be the logic being applied.

Really not wanting to sound smug (been wrong many times before, will be many times ahead) but I'm baffled by the sheer number of people who don't seem to get the logic, and keep "black-or-white"ing what is a very, very nuanced situation.

As you may recall, I'm no fan of this Tory Government, but I have no issue with where they are attempting to tread this insanely hard line.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

It's really not odd though, and [MENTION=21158]Weststander[/MENTION] has already broadly covered this in his excellent post on this thread.

"The science" says everyone keeps the **** away from everyone else until such time as there is a vaccine. At the very extreme, as the Chinese implemented in Wuhan, that just doesn't work though in an openly-functioning society and economy such as ours.

So risks have to be assessed and decisions taken.

It has been decided that an open education sector is a very high priority so stuff has to give elsewhere to enable that. It's not a perfect science, unfortunately, and it's a matter of trying to keep as much educational, economic and social activity happening as possible whilst trying to keep a grip on viral spread.

If and when the virus starts to spread more widely, more restrictions have to be brought into play in order to keep it in check.

I don't disagree with anything you say. The government are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't on this one and whilst I have no time for this bunch of chancers running the show each and every country in Europe is is more or less the same position no matter what actions they took or how well or badly they dealt with the initial wave of cases. I do disagree with some of the new rules though and the 1000 inside would appear to asking for trouble and my earlier post shows the signs I have of COVID fatigue which would be an awful lot worse if the kids were at home as well.

Where I am with the xmas thing is more pragmatic for my situation. The whole point of these rules is to stop the spread. As I get tested for work which suffices to let me mingle with the great unmasked on a daily basis (albeit no more than 2 of us are supposed to walk around the block with each other every day despite being couped up all day otherwise) , I will probably take that forward to see more than a 2 family bubble over Xmas only to 3 but above 2 nonetheless and on separate days which is against the rules. The last thing I want to do is pass on covid to either my parents or in laws who are in their 70's and late 60's respectively but if I and the family are testing negative and not showing any symptoms, the level of risk we are taking here is minimal especially since I will have had the previous week off work for anything nasty to manifest itself with contact minimised again to the outside world.

 

[Notters]

Really not wanting to sound smug (been wrong many times before, will be many times ahead) but I'm baffled by the sheer number of people who don't seem to get the logic, and keep "black-or-white"ing what is a very, very nuanced situation.

As you may recall, I'm no fan of this Tory Government, but I have no issue with where they are attempting to tread this insanely hard line.

I'm in the same boat. I think their timing, communication and 'do as we say not as we do' has been horrific throughout, but I've generally agreed their broad way of doing things.

 

[Chicken Run]

You seem rather prickly these past few days; I’ll leave you to it.

I think strangely you must irritate [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION], I find that hard to believe....

 

[crodonilson]

One thing I don't realy underastand is why they don't close the schools a week earlier this year, they could then drop a weeks holiday next year to make up for it (possibly easter or whitsun holiday when things are nearer normal). Would allow many families to quarantine for a week/10 days prior to Xmas and enable them to then see relatives in relative security that they're not passing on the virus.

 

[sydney]

sweet mother of god...ffs and STROOTH...!!

 

[bluenitsuj]

One thing I don't realy underastand is why they don't close the schools a week earlier this year, they could then drop a weeks holiday next year to make up for it (possibly easter or whitsun holiday when things are nearer normal). Would allow many families to quarantine for a week/10 days prior to Xmas and enable them to then see relatives in relative security that they're not passing on the virus.

On paper, yes that would work but in reality we all know that a large number of kids/parents will do as they wish and not quarantine, which is why we are still in this current situation.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Again, re: how going with spirit of the law rather than letter of the law can help;

It's not against the rules to use service stations on the way up. However, if I'm heading to Nottingham on the 23rd, places like Cobham will be absolutely HEAVING. Therefore, I will apply the spirit of the law (reduce chance of infection where possible) by either filling up before leaving, or using smaller service stations, or even - shock, horror - travelling up late the evening before.

Against the letter of the law, but helping to lower risk.

This is another reason I rolled my eyes last night. We have the 5 day window which means the motorways are going to be absolutely stacked on days 1 and 5. If my dad wants to come from Sussex to Warwickshire (accepting the obvious, we will probably go the other way), he will not make it all that way without the toilet. Rather than sitting on the M25 in a jam stressing himself out or having god knows how many points of contact in Cobham Armitage shanks, surely its better if they travel a day earlier or later and - shock horror - break the rules by staying a night they shouldn't but limiting contact for everyone? Traffic around those dates is bad enough anyway as it is. As a betting man, I'd have the lot on it being gridlock on days 1 and 5.

 

[nicko31]

Absolute disgrace of a decision. If our Government's handling of this pandemic wasn't disastrous enough, let's just add this crazy idea to the mix. You'd think they'd of learned something useful by now.

Last week there was a lot of talk about for every day of relaxation at Christmas we would have 5 days of lockdown in the New Year.

Maybe it was wishful thinking but I thought the public was being softened up to date told we are still in a global pandemic and there is too much risk.

This is a wreckless decision nothing less

I keep trying to tell myself, yesterday's disaster doesn't mean tomorrow will be a disaster as well. But their incompetence never ceases to amaze me

 

[Mellotron]

This is another reason I rolled my eyes last night. We have the 5 day window which means the motorways are going to be absolutely stacked on days 1 and 5. If my dad wants to come from Sussex to Warwickshire (accepting the obvious, we will probably go the other way), he will not make it all that way without the toilet. Rather than sitting on the M25 in a jam stressing himself out or having god knows how many points of contact in Cobham Armitage shanks, surely its better if they travel a day earlier or later and - shock horror - break the rules by staying a night they shouldn't but limiting contact for everyone? Traffic around those dates is bad enough anyway as it is. As a betting man, I'd have the lot on it being gridlock on days 1 and 5.

Absolutely. Hence, your Dad should probably head up on the 22nd. When bending the rules is done precisely to lower risk, I can't personally see the issue.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Again, re: how going with spirit of the law rather than letter of the law can help;

It's not against the rules to use service stations on the way up. However, if I'm heading to Nottingham on the 23rd, places like Cobham will be absolutely HEAVING. Therefore, I will apply the spirit of the law (reduce chance of infection where possible) by either filling up before leaving, or using smaller service stations, or even - shock, horror - travelling up late the evening before.

Against the letter of the law, but helping to lower risk.

If you pay at the pump and take your own food/drink there need be no risk at all to motorway travel.

 

[Bozza]

Last week there was a lot of talk about for every day of relaxation at Christmas we would have 5 days of lockdown in the New Year.

Maybe it was wishful thinking but I thought the public was being softened up to date told we are still in a global pandemic and there is too much risk.

This is a wreckless decision nothing less

I keep trying to tell myself, yesterday's disaster doesn't mean tomorrow will be a disaster as well. But their incompetence never ceases to amaze me

What is your proposal for Christmas?

And, assuming you are advocating tighter restrictions, how much adherence do you think there would be, particularly amongst the "No one is telling me what to do at Christmas" crowd?

(Again - I'm not backing what is being proposed, specifically, but I'm interested in what people think a pragmatic and workable alternative is)

 

[Mellotron]

If you pay at the pump and take your own food/drink there need be no risk at all to motorway travel.

Yup, agreed. Many won't though. Some service stations don't allow pay at pump, also.

However my point is that there are numerous examples where obeying the spirit of the law is actually safer than obeying the letter of the law, in regards Coronavirus guidance.