[Albion] Evan Ferguson

[Clive Walker]

If Fergusons development at Brighton has been so good so far, ie bohemians star to premier league wonder kid, why would we trust some other team to develop him on our behalf. We are lacking in out and out strikers. He’ll get sufficient game time here and develop within. Pointless sending him on loan. He benefiting from the position he plays.

The amount of chances we create he’ll find it impossible not to bag a few more.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Doesn’t need a loan he’s ready as proven and doesn’t need to prove himself in the championship (currently)

He’s a different person from Connolly and seemingly more mature, grounded and stable. I’m sure his Dad being involved in football past and present is an excellent sounding board.

 

[GT49er]

FFS. it's not a question of 'Loans good, no loans bad'. There's no one-size fits all with young players; Connolly, IMHO, we took eighteen months/two years too long before sending him out on loan.

As for Ferguson - should we send him out on loan now? Certainly not! If, like Connolly, he struggles between now and the end of the season, send him out on loan by all means - and don't leave it too late. If he remains looking perfectly at home leading the line for us in the PL, keep him here doing just that!

 

[Stat Brother]

Everton had only conceded 20 goals in 17 games before playing us, only 6 other teams had better defensive record. Ferguson scoring against Arsenal then Everton, then saying it was just that Everton can't defend doesn't quite ring true. Everything needs perspective and context, but I would say Coady and Tarkers being made to look akin to the Keystone Cops was something of credit to our players, not to discredit the achievement because of that.

I didn't come here for fact based debate.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Doesn’t need a loan he’s ready as proven and doesn’t need to prove himself in the championship (currently)

He’s a different person from Connolly and seemingly more mature, grounded and stable. I’m sure his Dad being involved in football past and present is an excellent sounding board.

Totally agree. Find it astounding that we have a massive thread about needing to sign a striker and yet when we find one in house people are suggesting we loan out. We have passed that point with Ferguson as he has shown he can score at this level and his physical strength and all round game match the 2 goals he has scored. More importantly he looks to have the mental strength and sensible approach needed. We need to be integrating him in our team with the other youngsters to develop their understanding of each other not put him out to pot luck development.

People are suggesting that putting Connolly out on loan would have developed him better, Connolly's problem is not in his boots its in his head and i am not sure whether putting him out to loan and him doing well would have prevented that.

I know many will disagree but loans can be detrimental, Forster-Caskey came into first team at a young age as we had a bout of injuries, he played very well and then we send him out on loan and he came back a worse player who sadly got even poorer. IMO he suffered from too much coaching.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Totally agree. Find it astounding that we have a massive thread about needing to sign a striker and yet when we find one in house people are suggesting we loan out. We have passed that point with Ferguson as he has shown he can score at this level and his physical strength and all round game match the 2 goals he has scored. More importantly he looks to have the mental strength and sensible approach needed. We need to be integrating him in our team with the other youngsters to develop their understanding of each other not put him out to pot luck development.

People are suggesting that putting Connolly out on loan would have developed him better, Connolly's problem is not in his boots its in his head and i am not sure whether putting him out to loan and him doing well would have prevented that.

I know many will disagree but loans can be detrimental, Forster-Caskey came into first team at a young age as we had a bout of injuries, he played very well and then we send him out on loan and he came back a worse player who sadly got even poorer. IMO he suffered from too much coaching.

Agree,

Maybe manage his minutes but don’t see any improvement loaning him out.

Equally I wouldn’t want to loan out and isolate any of our SA future stars, new country needs familiarity and they will benefit more at lancing

@b.w.2. Has been quiet - just need this endorsement and thread can be locked

 

[Badger Boy]

The flip side is we sent White out on loan for a fantastic season with Leeds while we had Duffy making mistakes galore, then White comes back and we only get 1 season out of him. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but little doubt in my mind White was ready and should have played instead of Duffy that season.

Likewise, send Ferguson out on loan, has a brilliant Championship season and we’d probably have the vultures cycling like MU are around strikers right now.

Difference between us and Spurs with Kane is that they had Bale, Defoe, Adebayor, Eriksen when they were sending him out on loan. As posted above, plenty of young strikers getting in their teams at 17, 18, 19.

I think you're overlooking how different players develop. Wayne Rooney didn't need a loan to develop, he was Premier League quality aged 16. Harry Kane really wasn't until he was 19/20/21. Kane did need those loans to develop as a player and I would argue that Ben White probably did too - he needed his spell with Newport (where he was excellent), Peterborough (where he was excellent) and Leeds (where he played for one of the biggest clubs in the world). He then nestled into our first team because of the quality he'd gained through his experience at the lower levels and away from the spotlight of the Premier League.

 

[Audax]

There was no damage done to Connolly. He showed great promise and deserved his crack at the first team. What has happened isn't damage, it's an arc of a career path that happens to many players that can show great promise, but ultimately fall short at the very highest level. Hypothetically had we sent him out on loan before scoring 2 goals against Spurs - sliding doors he might still be exactly where he is now.

One thing I would say for certain is that if you have a player good enough and can be selected for your first team and will get game time, you absolutely do not send them out on loan. There is no need. Their development is completely in your hands. Would be absolute madness to send any players RDZ wants to pick out on loan to another club.

I'm referring to the damage done within his own head, not anything inflicted on him externally. My opinion only, but I just have a feeling that had he carried on performing and scoring goals on the field, his off field situation may not have gone the same way. Always struck me as a cocky young fella, and cocky young fellas thrive on confidence. When that confidence evaporates on field, with a player like that the risk is they substitute off field activity to prop themselves back up.

Anyway: Ferguson looks an entirely different prospect, and he's coming into a side that is far better prepared when it comes to helping a youngster bed in and make a success of it. Just needs the club and the players and his own family and friends to keep his feet on the ground and his eyes on the pitch and he'll be an absolute gem for Brighton.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I think you're overlooking how different players develop. Wayne Rooney didn't need a loan to develop, he was Premier League quality aged 16. Harry Kane really wasn't until he was 19/20/21. Kane did need those loans to develop as a player and I would argue that Ben White probably did too - he needed his spell with Newport (where he was excellent), Peterborough (where he was excellent) and Leeds (where he played for one of the biggest clubs in the world). He then nestled into our first team because of the quality he'd gained through his experience at the lower levels and away from the spotlight of the Premier League.

Read my other posts, far from overlooking, I think that is exactly what I am saying, each player is different, and how they respond to matches, pressure etc. in their development is all individual. We already admitted we waited too long with Caicedo, I think we did with White too, but we can debate that all day.

With Ferguson we have a striker need, and a player that looks ready to play. I'd rather Roberto manages his development and game time, and the club look after him here than rely on some club you loan him out to. If he had no chance of getting in the starting XI, then you might resort to a loan. Right now, a loan is the last thing you're looking at.

 

[GT49er]

I didn't come here for fact based debate.

We know......................................

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Ferguson looks far better equipped than Connolly did, but is also in a far better team.

His two goals are those that over the years post Murray haven't been scored. His movement for the Everton goal was that of a young player aware of his presence in the area. He moved forwards back then forwards so he was free to receive the ball. He also set March up for his goal. Not just by passing to him but vacating the area that March needed to attack. That alone pulled the defenders in all directions leaving a huge hole for March to get into. it's that sort awareness that will give him the edge and tbh it's what Welbeck is good at.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Agree,

Maybe manage his minutes but don’t see any improvement loaning him out.

Equally I wouldn’t want to loan out and isolate any of our SA future stars, new country needs familiarity and they will benefit more at lancing

@b.w.2. Has been quiet - just need this endorsement and thread can be locked

Agree he can't and shouldn't have to do it all on his own so he's not the full answer because we will need to replace Undav (probably) and I am not sure how much game time we will get from Welbeck though to be fair we have lot of players who look like they can score we don't have that outlet player , though playing out to the wing is a decent option with Mitoma out there.

 

[maltaseagull]

FFS. it's not a question of 'Loans good, no loans bad'. There's no one-size fits all with young players; Connolly, IMHO, we took eighteen months/two years too long before sending him out on loan.

As for Ferguson - should we send him out on loan now? Certainly not! If, like Connolly, he struggles between now and the end of the season, send him out on loan by all means - and don't leave it too late. If he remains looking perfectly at home leading the line for us in the PL, keep him here doing just that!

He looked very comfortable against Arsenal and Everton.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

All the analysis in this thread is based on nothing more than looking at where different players are now and retrofitting an explanation related to each players' experience. Cause and effect doesn't work like that. Clearly every success and failure became a success or failure owing to a combination of the player's ability and their experience. Only a player not cutting it (yet) will be loaned out, and whether they come back better or not will largely depend on their ability. I am not aware of any strong evidence that a mediocre player can be transformed by a loan.

Harry Kane seemed to blossom as he got older, and being loaned out to the likes of Millwall seems like nothing more than keeping him occupied in the hope he may improve with time. Ben White the same. These boys improved, but Forster Caskey didn't - and I would suggest this is because Jakey wasn't that great, not that the loan was the 'wrong one'.

It may be possible to ruin good players with bad coaching (although I am unaware of any strong evidence for this) but you can't upgrade modest talent with coaching alone. Coaching helps players fulfil their potential, and if they don't have much . . . .they have to have a talent (perhaps somewhat hidden) in the first place. There was no way that a 1970s Potter could have coached me into a decent player, because I was irredeemably mediocre.

At the end of the day, it is what it is.

 

[Zeberdi]

All the analysis in this thread is based on nothing more than looking at where different players are now and retrofitting an explanation related to each players' experience

Wow really? And I was thinking I and several others were doing exactly the opposite and looking specifically at Evan’s experience both in Ireland, our academy, our U23s and our PL1 and fitting it to where he is personally regardless of any other players history or experience to argue that him ‘self-destructing‘ is very unlikely and loaning him out is inappropriate (and also unlikely)

Obviously agree with everything else you said though

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Wow really? And I was thinking I and several others were doing exactly the opposite and looking specifically at Evan’s experience both in Ireland, our academy, our U23s and our PL1 and fitting it to where he is personally regardless of any other players history or experience to argue that him ‘self-destructing‘ is very unlikely and loaning him out is inappropriate (and also unlikely)

Obviously agree with everything else you said though

Sorry perhaps I wasn't clear. If you follow a single process (like one player's career) over time then it is impossible to prove cause and effect. I can't prove my suspicion, of course, but for what it's worth I suspect that players with skill and a good attitude do generally better in the long term than those who lack either or both. Nobody can prove what has made Evan what he is today (as there's no 'control group', innit).

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Yeh. Obviously I don't know the lad or am not a professional in developing football talent, but sending him on loan seems totally the wrong idea.

Keep him here and rotate him in and out with welbeck trossard and undav for the rest of the season and we'll see where we are then

 

[Zeberdi]

Sorry perhaps I wasn't clear. If you follow a single process (like one player's career) over time then it is impossible to prove cause and effect. I can't prove my suspicion, of course, but for what it's worth I suspect that players with skill and a good attitude do generally better in the long term than those who lack either or both. Nobody can prove what has made Evan what he is today (as there's no 'control group', innit).

Ok sort of understand where you are coming from - a bit deep innit

But yes, clearly without ‘skill and a good attitude’ a player won’t travel far in the PL the first gets him in through door, the second helps keep him in it.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

All the analysis in this thread is based on nothing more than looking at where different players are now and retrofitting an explanation related to each players' experience. Cause and effect doesn't work like that. Clearly every success and failure became a success or failure owing to a combination of the player's ability and their experience. Only a player not cutting it (yet) will be loaned out, and whether they come back better or not will largely depend on their ability. I am not aware of any strong evidence that a mediocre player can be transformed by a loan.

Harry Kane seemed to blossom as he got older, and being loaned out to the likes of Millwall seems like nothing more than keeping him occupied in the hope he may improve with time. Ben White the same. These boys improved, but Forster Caskey didn't - and I would suggest this is because Jakey wasn't that great, not that the loan was the 'wrong one'.

It may be possible to ruin good players with bad coaching (although I am unaware of any strong evidence for this) but you can't upgrade modest talent with coaching alone. Coaching helps players fulfil their potential, and if they don't have much . . . .they have to have a talent (perhaps somewhat hidden) in the first place. There was no way that a 1970s Potter could have coached me into a decent player, because I was irredeemably mediocre.

At the end of the day, it is what it is.

I'm aware of cases in other sports of players being ruined by bad coaching. It's possibly difficult to transfer those examples to football, but when bringing a young player through and developing them I'm sure you can add or subtract a few months to how they come along depending on how you handle them.
The management/personality side will be more important, but that's so unique to each case I don't see any point in citing prior examples.

 

[Sheebo]

Watch him for March’s goal… lays it off then makes an excellent quick run off the ball partly causing Tarman to slip as he was pointing and making the Ukrainian lad aware of him - creating space for Solly to do what he did. Class workrate and intelligence for such a young lad.