[Albion] Fabian Hurzeler: IN or OUT

[oldboyroy]

The vote split and the number of votes would suggest it’s a worthwhile poll

It's certainly split almost 50/50 now isn't it compared to the poll after the spanking at Forest. Can't remember the actual results of that 1 but seems more want him gone now than back then?.
If we lose against the hapless hammers next week (or even fail to win), the Amex will again become increasingly toxic!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I’m looking forward to the hairdressers re-opening tomorrow so we can get the player unrest, player mutiny, Wellbz has decked Hurzeler rumours for a second time this season.

 

[Blue3]

can anyone recall our players talking enthusiastically and FB, then there’s the players going out on loan who were first team regular then playing out of position when other more established options are available.
This season for Brighton is now over as it might be for the “trust the process” methodology

 

[Bold Seagull]

Very good post, but just to put over an alternative viewpoint.

All of those teams play a better quality of football than us and out of possession have a clear defensive structure which is difficult to beat. I think football fans generally are happier, if they can see a clear pattern (‘identity’) of play, rather than in our case at times what looks like complete chaos.

None of those teams, have spent £200m, even if some of it was on promising investments (which by definition are also gambles), but most of which have not yielded a swift return. I do like @Commander give it a year theory which makes sense, but does not take into account that this year was a real opportunity, but of course nobody could have foreseen the poor quality of the league this year.

Their fanbase perhaps have slightly lower expectations than ours. We always have a discussion that Europe has actually spoiled us in some respects, it was an amazing experience and naturally we want more but our expectations are now raised. Fulham haven’t been there for ?15 years plus, Bournemouth, Brentford and Palace never, so arguably like us under RdZ they are enjoying the ride.

The fact their managers are more experienced is a good point, but perhaps that is part of the problem. Was the FH appointment wrong to begin with?
Silva and Iraola are better managers and IMO, would have done more with our team than FH.

I think the fact NSC seem split on FH which for a manager relatively early on in his Albion career is not a good thing, says a lot. There are a lot of sensible posters debating from completely different standpoints and I would say that is fairly significant as well.

Newcastle, Forest, Fulham, Bournemouth, Brentford, Villa all have managers been in the job longer than a year. Bournemouth sold Solanke, but none of them have had to rebuild from selling 4 or more of their best players over the last year or so.

Our £200m spend wasn’t a strengthening, it was largely a replacing of sold talent.

 

[ROSM]

Some big statements there. Baleba is great, but not sure we’re a top 8 centre midfield with a.n.other in there.

Forwards, Welbeck 34, Pedro and Georginio looking good but top 8, really? Where does that put Watkins/Rogers, Wood/GibbsW, Mbuemo/Wissa, Kluivert/Semenyo, Jimenez/Iwobi, Mateta/Eze.

The margins between quite a few teams are tiny, a single mistake, a bit of confidence, an untimely injury is the difference between kicking on to top 8 or staring outside the top 10.

Not really sure how you’ve objectively come up with these statements?

Well it's all a game of opinions. However baleba is a top 4 player on his own. With ayari they make a top 8.

The three forwards you quote given we play any 2 out of the 3 are better than 3 of the 6 pairs you list and on a par with at least 1 of them.

Margins are tight but it's getting the best out of what you have. My view is that nuno is getting more percentage wise out of wood/gibbs white and iraola out of semenyo/Kluivert and Frank out of mbuemo/wissa than fab has been getting out of our 3 over the course of the season. As someone else said maybe they were managing Rutter's minutes early on but in my view we really stumbled into rutter as the 10 after the forest debacle despite flashes of its feasibility earlier in the season.

Unless things change (tactics/formation) other teams will see the full ability of those players before we will. And then we will have our own fans saying 'why didn't we see that for us?'. It's very different from say cucurella and caicedo where fans were questioning why they weren't doing it for their new teams like they did for us

 

[Deadly Danson]

Ah right, so this is all because FH doesn’t have a chant? That’s why we have no shape or structure and he’s trying to continue with tactics that the players available struggle with, over and over.
Post of the decade this one…….

Where have I said that? I'm hugely unconvinced by him but was responding to a post about fans chanting his name.

 

[ROSM]

Very good post, but just to put over an alternative viewpoint.

All of those teams play a better quality of football than us and out of possession have a clear defensive structure which is difficult to beat. I think football fans generally are happier, if they can see a clear pattern (‘identity’) of play, rather than in our case at times what looks like complete chaos.

None of those teams, have spent £200m, even if some of it was on promising investments (which by definition are also gambles), but most of which have not yielded a swift return. I do like @Commander give it a year theory which makes sense, but does not take into account that this year was a real opportunity, but of course nobody could have foreseen the poor quality of the league this year.

Their fanbase perhaps have slightly lower expectations than ours. We always have a discussion that Europe has actually spoiled us in some respects, it was an amazing experience and naturally we want more but our expectations are now raised. Fulham haven’t been there for ?15 years plus, Bournemouth, Brentford and Palace never, so arguably like us under RdZ they are enjoying the ride.

The fact their managers are more experienced is a good point, but perhaps that is part of the problem. Was the FH appointment wrong to begin with?
Silva and Iraola are better managers and IMO, would have done more with our team than FH.

I think the fact NSC seem split on FH which for a manager relatively early on in his Albion career is not a good thing, says a lot. There are a lot of sensible posters debating from completely different standpoints and I would say that is fairly significant as well.

I think this makes a very valid point I was trying to make about the potential of our players and how i believe the managers of clubs mentioned here get more out of their players than we are at the moment. That isn't blue and white tinted specs as we currently have an unbelievable array of talent that I don't feel even when they were fully fit, we've seen the best od apart from 1st half away at Liverpool or second half home to city/spurs.

An honourable mention for Newcastle away in the league where our set up was spot on. If we had done that against Brentford, Leicester amd palace it would have masked a lot of the gaps caused by injuries and brought 4 more points at least

 

[Deadly Danson]

I’m sorry but whether a player gets a chant means absolutely nothing.

It does to the players.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

I’m sorry but whether a player gets a chant means absolutely nothing.

*Puts away songbook*

 

[Milano]

Where have I said that? I'm hugely unconvinced by him but was responding to a post about fans chanting his name.

I read the thread title and your post, if I misunderstood then apologies.

 

[Commander]

I've wondered this all season. I simply could never understand why we have never sung FHs name. He started amazingly well - a 4-1 away win for goodness sake and he came over and acknowledged the fans but nothing. We've rarely been out of the top 10 and during good wins home and away a chant has never really materialised. I get that he's perhaps not as charismatic as RDZ but he supports the club's vision, never whinges or blames the ref or injuries and has done fine. I also get that we've had some crushingly disappointing results and some of the football hasn't been exciting but I do feel that, as fans, we could have done so much more to create a better atmosphere for him but then we could barely muster a Pascal Gross chant during his time here and he's now considered a legend. I guess we just have pretty apathetic, reactive rather than proactive fans.

Bang on IMO.

I don't think people realise what an absolute pain in the arse someone like RDZ would be to manager for Bloom / Barber. They must enjoy managing a character like FH so much more. Having everyone pulling in the same direction is a massive positive for our football club, despite some bumps on the way.

If we were to win 3-4 out of our last 5 games and finish 8th and make the Conference League then I cannot fathom how anybody could say this was a bad season, with all the changes and all the injuries we've had. I imagine Bloom would be over the moon with that, and would feel that we are in such a great position to kick on next year, without any of the drama and the issues of the RDZ seasons.

I accept that if we were to lose 3-4 out of the last 5 and finish 11th / 12th then there would need to be some questions asked of FH (and the playing staff) but I don't think that is going to happen.

 

[Sarisbury Seagull]

Its all so very very strange that this poll even exists.

I went on the Bournemouth site and couldn't find an Iraola OUT poll or any thread calling for his head. But Bournemouth have 49 points, just the one more than us.,

I went on the Fulham site and couldn't find a Silva OUT poll or any thread calling for his head. But Fulham have 48 points, exactly the same as us.

I went on the Brentford site and couldn't find a Frank OUT poll or any thread calling for his head. But Fulham have 46 points, two less than us.

And yet all three of those managers are way more experienced, with multiple seasons honing their craft at the top level, building their team in the Premier League over multiple transfer windows.

Its not even as if we're having a worst season than last year, we're doing better in both league and domestic cups, and yet we're the club with 7 or 8 threads on the front page calling for our managers head after just 30 games in charge and a perfectly decent record.

Not sure what this says about the NSC fanbase. Maybe its a good thing that we're so demanding of instant success. But I can't help thinking it really isn't.

It’s pretty obvious why to be honest but to be clear:

Iraola: took over a very small team playing turgid football and fighting relegation and has transformed them into a side fighting for Europe and playing one of the most exciting brands of football in the PL. At the same time has coached and improved the players there exponentially and added massive value to their squad. Will go down as one of their greatest manager’s.

Silva: after being a yoyo side for years, he got Fulham promoted and has established them as a strong Premier League side with no danger of relegation playing decent football and with a chance of Europe. Will go down as one of their greatest manager’s.

Frank: took over a very small club taking them to promotion to the top flight, has established them there and given them a chance of European football. Playing clever, adaptive football maximising the talents of the players he has available. All the while doing it on a very small spend, losing their best player to a long ban and then sale and with an absolutely ridiculous injury list over the past two seasons. Will go down as one of their greatest manager’s.

Hurzeler: none of that.

Bit of a wierd comparison really, of course those fans are not going to be wanting their brilliant manager’s to go.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Newcastle, Forest, Fulham, Bournemouth, Brentford, Villa all have managers been in the job longer than a year. Bournemouth sold Solanke, but none of them have had to rebuild from selling 4 or more of their best players over the last year or so.

Our £200m spend wasn’t a strengthening, it was largely a replacing of sold talent.

But there is limited evidence because of the investment element, that these players have replaced the sold talent.

Those managers are more experienced but perhaps that is the point, the ability to flex during game time situations, never mind starting tactics is not always good enough.

 

[deslynhamsmoustache1]

Another season with a defensive rebuild in the summer. Then judge at Christmas.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Bang on IMO.

I don't think people realise what an absolute pain in the arse someone like RDZ would be to manager for Bloom / Barber. They must enjoy managing a character like FH so much more. Having everyone pulling in the same direction is a massive positive for our football club, despite some bumps on the way.

If we were to win 3-4 out of our last 5 games and finish 8th and make the Conference League then I cannot fathom how anybody could say this was a bad season, with all the changes and all the injuries we've had. I imagine Bloom would be over the moon with that, and would feel that we are in such a great position to kick on next year, without any of the drama and the issues of the RDZ seasons.

I accept that if we were to lose 3-4 out of the last 5 and finish 11th / 12th then there would need to be some questions asked of FH (and the playing staff) but I don't think that is going to happen.

Is that really a good thing?

Whilst I don’t disagree re RdZ, I would rather have constructive challenge and ambition any day of the week, rather than a ‘yes man’. Clearly, I don’t know what goes on behind the scenes and perhaps that does happen, but I would suggest it’s less likely with a younger coach.

Very fair post, and couldn’t agree more re finishing position, but whilst delighted to have the prospect of more European trips, I’d still be slightly concerned around our style and set-up. But then perhaps FH will reflect during the off-season and comeback with new ideas.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

They finished 3rd 22/23, 2nd 21/22. They’ve only finished outside the top 5 once in the last 9 years.

My bad

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

It’s pretty obvious why to be honest but to be clear:

Iraola: took over a very small team playing turgid football and fighting relegation and has transformed them into a side fighting for Europe and playing one of the most exciting brands of football in the PL. At the same time has coached and improved the players there exponentially and added massive value to their squad. Will go down as one of their greatest manager’s.

Silva: after being a yoyo side for years, he got Fulham promoted and has established them as a strong Premier League side with no danger of relegation playing decent football and with a chance of Europe. Will go down as one of their greatest manager’s.

Frank: took over a very small club taking them to promotion to the top flight, has established them there and given them a chance of European football. Playing clever, adaptive football maximising the talents of the players he has available. All the while doing it on a very small spend, losing their best player to a long ban and then sale and with an absolutely ridiculous injury list over the past two seasons. Will go down as one of their greatest manager’s.

Hurzeler: none of that.

Bit of a wierd comparison really, of course those fans are not going to be wanting their brilliant manager’s to go.

Its an absolutely valid comparison because these are clubs of similar size to us who have had exactly the same season as us, give or take a point. And the fact is that these brilliant managers, who have established their teams at the upper-middle reaches of the Premier League, and will each go down as one of their clubs greatest ever managers, have not performed any better than 32-yr old Fabian Hurzeler in his first go at European top-level football anywhere. Isn't that just hugely impressive on Fabs part? I don't understand why people are trying to find ways to do him down - the very fact that his record stands up to those of his much more experienced peers on his first go-round at this level is so impressive. Imagine what he will have achieved after four years at the helm like Silva has or seven years like Frank has?

 

[Thimble Keegan]

I have not really warmed to Hurzeler, but for me, it was always going to be difficult, seeing as I loved De Zerbi.

What also has not helped is that I cannot really fathom out what our style and tactics appear to be. With De Zerbi and Potter before him, you could work out how we were trying to play. Also, I am not a fan of his, "hey guys" personality, but then again, it is not me he needs to convince in this respect.

That said, I have voted, "In". For me, you sack a manager for failure and 10th in the Premier League (currently) and an FA Cup Quarter-Final for a young coach in his first season managing at the highest domestic level is not and never will be failure for a club like ours.

I can understand that we all get frustrated, especially when we are in a bad period of form, but I am just not comfortable with everyone frothing at the gash, demanding a manager be sacked just because we might miss out on Europe. It all sounds like the moans of the entitled fans of these big clubs we love to bash so much. We have absolutely no right to be demanding European football or a top 7 finish or whatever, so everyone needs to calm down a tad...And this is not meant to be a, "look how far we have come since Gillingham" comment, it is just saying it like it is.

It makes it all the more baffling people want this change, when surely they realise that Bloom is highly unlikely to pull the trigger. Binning-off a manager for a mid-table finish is not a good look...Hell, we even got criticism for sacking Hughton for just keeping us in the Premier League.

I think we need to have a little patience and see how Hurzeler develops. He is young and still gaining experience, so as long as he learns then it will only bring improvement. There are plenty of stories of coaches taking time to get to grips with life in the Premier League...Just recently, Andoni Iraola had a terrible start for Bournemouth last season, but now they are being lauded.

So let's see how next season plays-out before everyone starts getting the knives out because we are only 10th in Premier League.

Albion & England forever.

Thimble Keegan
Rustington BHA

 

[Bozza]

It’s pretty obvious why to be honest but to be clear:

Iraola: took over a very small team playing turgid football and fighting relegation and has transformed them into a side fighting for Europe and playing one of the most exciting brands of football in the PL. At the same time has coached and improved the players there exponentially and added massive value to their squad. Will go down as one of their greatest manager’s.

Silva: after being a yoyo side for years, he got Fulham promoted and has established them as a strong Premier League side with no danger of relegation playing decent football and with a chance of Europe. Will go down as one of their greatest manager’s.

Frank: took over a very small club taking them to promotion to the top flight, has established them there and given them a chance of European football. Playing clever, adaptive football maximising the talents of the players he has available. All the while doing it on a very small spend, losing their best player to a long ban and then sale and with an absolutely ridiculous injury list over the past two seasons. Will go down as one of their greatest manager’s.

Hurzeler: none of that.

Bit of a wierd comparison really, of course those fans are not going to be wanting their brilliant manager’s to go.

You don't seem to be attaching any merit to how long each has been in their respective jobs, and how that may relate to performance.

Iraola came during the summer of 2023, so last season was his first in the Premier League. Bournemouth splashed a lot of cash on a lot of promising players that summer, players like Kluivert, Traore, Kerkez, Scott, Aarons, Adams (and Sinestra arrived in the winter transfer window).

Despite spending in the region of £130m, Iraola's Bournemouth finished below us in 12th.

This is Iraola's second season and they've kicked on, having spent another c£100m, and have a chance of matching or even beating their best ever finish - 9th under Eddie Howe in 2016/17.

The Iraola comparison is interesting because it illustrates what a good manager can do if permitted time to learn and develop. He's also been backed financially quite significantly too, which will clearly help.

Surely looking at Iraola suggests we should give Hurzeler time?

 

[ROSM]

You don't seem to be attaching any merit to how long each has been in their respective jobs and how that may relate to performance.

Iraola came during the summer of 2023, so last season was his first in the Premier League. Bournemouth splashed a lot of cash on a lot of promising players that summer, players like Kluivert, Traore, Kerkez, Scott, Aarons, Adams (and Sinestra arrived in the winter transfer window).

Despite spending in the region of £130m, Iraola's Bournemouth finished below us in 12th.

This is Iraola's second season and they've kicked on, having spent another c£100m, and have a chance of matching or even beating their best ever finish - 9th under Eddie Howe in 2016/17.

The Iraola comparison is interesting because it illustrates what a good manager can do if permitted time to learn and develop. He's also been backed financially quite significantly too, which will clearly help.

Surely looking at Iraola suggests we should give Hurzeler time?

That's interesting if purely looking at points.

The question for me is was Iraola getting the best out of the players available to him last season? I think the consensus especially over the second half of the season was a resounding yes. That has given confidence he will push on this season.

Hughton clearly did for two full seasons and 2 half seasons before having a final half where he clearly wasn't. He was then dismissed. The feeling was that rdz wasn't the second half of last season and he too was given the heave ho (plus he was likely a pain in the backside to work with)