[Albion] Mats Wieffer

[One Teddy Maybank]

Not really. JP played a DCM pivot in a tight positional DCM role (similar to Weiffer’s role at Feyenoord but not a ‘libero’/CB/DCM. Webster was in a back 3, yes, but as a dedicated central CB. In Hürzeler’s startup, the CB is the DCM out of possession.

It was a slightly different system that day against Fulham to either Slot’s at Feyenoord (where he plays 4-2-3-1) or Hürzeler’s 3-4-3 but it was a tweak RDZ’s system - maybe in anticipation of Fulham being a team that wouldn’t take the bait to press high but would sit in a low block and hit us on the counterattacks? - If his aim was to play an intense press against Fulham but to fall into a high 5 man block (with VH and Baleba dropping back) if we lost possession (which is what Hürzeler does btw to defend against counterattacks ) then it might have worked if we knew what we were doing - but that’s the problem with rigid positional systems like De Zerbi ball, players get so wedded to a position and which players are where at any given time, when you try and mix it up/change it up, they can look like headless chickens.

Historically a ‘libero ’ plays behind the CBS.
JP sat in front….. trouble is Webbo and Dunk had nightmares, but my point remains he has played as a CDM.

 

[Johnny RoastBeef]

Historically a ‘libero ’ plays behind the CBS.
JP sat in front….. trouble is Webbo and Dunk had nightmares, but my point remains he has played as a CDM.

this is true, the role is a hybrid, not a true libero or a regista, its a hybrid CB/CDM without a fancy Italian name.

is this a position that Hurzeler created and which Pep nicked and then converted John Stones into, or did someone else do it before?

 

[nwgull]

I think we were just too preoccupied with the up coming Roma match and Gilmour was suspended because of the red card, which he picked up against Everton.

That was the Lallana interview game, wasn't it? I have a feeling that there was stuff going on behind the scenes in that week that we're never likley to hear about.

 

[Zeberdi]

Historically a ‘libero ’ plays behind the CBS.
JP sat in front….. trouble is Webbo and Dunk had nightmares, but my point remains he has played as a CDM.

Don’t read if too long but the following may be of interest

Historically, the ‘libero’ since it was conceived by Rappan in the 1930s, has developed in several different ways but originally the libero dropped back from MF to join the back line in defence rather than it being a CB role that played forward.

Rappan withdrew a player from his midfield to turn his back three into 4 for added security in defence out of possession. Rappan’s Libero was very much the conductor, orchestrating the play (Like WBG does very well at times) but rather than being a CB, he played the role of a sweeper that ‘locked up’ any open doors. This fortified line of a 4 man defence also became the base from which was initiated fast counter attacks when the Swiss side won back possession after taking advantage of the opposition stretching the field when committing to an attack. Hürzeler uses a similar tactic when forming a high 5 man block out of possession by dropping two of his MF’s into the line of defence.

In the 1950s - following a break from the war, the manager of Inter Milan, Herrera put a twist on Rappan’s libero role and developed the ‘Catenaccio’. While Rappan’s libero was very much a defender with a MF‘s attacking mentality, Herrera’s Catenaccio was primarily a defender that sat back more without the need to push forward. Inter’s Catenaccio system inspired teams to adopt similar strategies and it became the dominant philosophy in Italian football.

In the Netherlands, Rappan’s system was developed into ‘Totaalvoetbal‘ - rather than just one player it was deployed across the whole team. In a similar way, Hürzeler‘s plan (apart from using a CB/CDM Libero) also allows players to freely adapt to a variety of positions whilst working within the system.

In Germany in the late ‘60s, yet another form of Libero was inspired by Beckenbauer at Bayern Munich - Not only did Beckenbauer drive the ball forward into the MF from a deep lying position but was also excellent out of possession further back as a defender behind the CBs from where he dictated the play. ( He also was an excellent dribbler when moving forward). He was the Father of the modern Libero in a way but it continued to develop/adapt - Lother Matthaus played as a sweeper in front of a back four when he became too much of a liability because of his age, to be the last man in defence.

TL;DR

The role of ‘Libero’ has developed in a variety of ways and different elements can been seen re surging or continuing to be developed in the modern game. I think we could see from this that Hürzeler would have a number of Libero options depending on the players available- This article is an easy read and what the above is based (with more explanation).

The evolution of the libero and how it changed the course of so many philosophies

This feature is taken from the Philosophies issue of These Football Times magazine. Order your copy of this beautifully crafted, timeless print edition

thesefootballtimes.co

 

[Giraffe]

Don’t read if too long but the following may be of interest

Historically, the ‘libero’ since it was conceived by Rappan in the 1930s, has developed in several different ways but originally the libero dropped back from MF to join the back line in defence rather than it being a CB role that played forward.

Rappan withdrew a player from his midfield to turn his back three into 4 for added security in defence out of possession. Rappan’s Libero was very much the conductor, orchestrating the play (Like WBG does very well at times) but rather than being a CB, he played the role of a sweeper that ‘locked up’ any open doors. This fortified line of a 4 man defence also became the base from which was initiated fast counter attacks when the Swiss side won back possession after taking advantage of the opposition stretching the field when committing to an attack. Hürzeler uses a similar tactic when forming a high 5 man block out of possession by dropping two of his MF’s into the line of defence.

In the 1950s - following a break from the war, the manager of Inter Milan, Herrera put a twist on Rappan’s libero role and developed the ‘Catenaccio’. While Rappan’s libero was very much a defender with a MF‘s attacking mentality, Herrera’s Catenaccio was primarily a defender that sat back more without the need to push forward. Inter’s Catenaccio system inspired teams to adopt similar strategies and it became the dominant philosophy in Italian football.

In the Netherlands, Rappan’s system was developed into ‘Totaalvoetbal‘ - rather than just one player it was deployed across the whole team. In a similar way, Hürzeler‘s plan (apart from using a CB/CDM Libero) also allows players to freely adapt to a variety of positions whilst working within the system.

In Germany, yet another form of Libero was inspired by Beckenbauer at Bayern Munich - Not only did Beckenbauer drive the ball forward into the MF from a deep lying position but was also excellent out of possession further back as a defender behind the CBs from where he dictated the play. ( He also was an excellent dribbler when moving forward). He was the Father of the modern Libero in a way but it continued to develop/adapt - Lother Matthaus played as a sweeper in front of a back four when he became too much of a liability because of his age, to be the last man in defence.

TL;DR

The role of ‘Libero’ has developed in a variety of ways and different elements can been seen re surging or continuing to be developed in the modern game. I think we could see from this that Hürzeler would have a number of Libero options depending on the players available- This article is an easy read and what the above is based (with more explanation).

The evolution of the libero and how it changed the course of so many philosophies

This feature is taken from the Philosophies issue of These Football Times magazine. Order your copy of this beautifully crafted, timeless print edition

thesefootballtimes.co

Is that the same as the old fashioned sweeper? Before my time really but it sounds like the same role really.

 

[Machiavelli]

this is true, the role is a hybrid, not a true libero or a regista, its a hybrid CB/CDM without a fancy Italian name.

is this a position that Hurzeler created and which Pep nicked and then converted John Stones into, or did someone else do it before?

I think John Stones is the best analogy as playing the hybrid CB/DCM role. That said, he's played most of his career as a CB and, when he moves into the DCM position for City (from a defensive CB position, although they don't do much defending), they play with a back three screened by a DCM duo of Rodri and JS -- this has been well covered by Jonathan Wilson on several occasions. So City go from a 4231 defensive formation to a 3241 formation with the ball. From what I understand Huerzeler goes from a 523/541 defensive formation to a 253-ish on the ball.

 

[schmunk]

Is that the same as the old fashioned sweeper? Before my time really but it sounds like the same role really.

Essentially yes, just with more LATIN FLARE.

 

[Zeberdi]

Is that the same as the old fashioned sweeper? Before my time really but it sounds like the same role really.

Rappan’s Libero? Yes. The role was ‘sweeper’ to drop out of MF assist the defenders but the role of the Libero developed into more (as described above) so ‘sweeping‘ became one aspect of a fuller role that was more than ‘just’ defensive, it also became an attacking role too by launching counterattacks with forward passes and dribbles into midfield (Beckenbauer) - like the playing out from the back that’s common now with modern CBs. The offside rule has more or less stopped that very deep defensive sweeper Libero (you don’t want your last defender playing every attacking forward onside!).

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Don’t read if too long but the following may be of interest

Historically, the ‘libero’ since it was conceived by Rappan in the 1930s, has developed in several different ways but originally the libero dropped back from MF to join the back line in defence rather than it being a CB role that played forward.

Rappan withdrew a player from his midfield to turn his back three into 4 for added security in defence out of possession. Rappan’s Libero was very much the conductor, orchestrating the play (Like WBG does very well at times) but rather than being a CB, he played the role of a sweeper that ‘locked up’ any open doors. This fortified line of a 4 man defence also became the base from which was initiated fast counter attacks when the Swiss side won back possession after taking advantage of the opposition stretching the field when committing to an attack. Hürzeler uses a similar tactic when forming a high 5 man block out of possession by dropping two of his MF’s into the line of defence.

In the 1950s - following a break from the war, the manager of Inter Milan, Herrera put a twist on Rappan’s libero role and developed the ‘Catenaccio’. While Rappan’s libero was very much a defender with a MF‘s attacking mentality, Herrera’s Catenaccio was primarily a defender that sat back more without the need to push forward. Inter’s Catenaccio system inspired teams to adopt similar strategies and it became the dominant philosophy in Italian football.

In the Netherlands, Rappan’s system was developed into ‘Totaalvoetbal‘ - rather than just one player it was deployed across the whole team. In a similar way, Hürzeler‘s plan (apart from using a CB/CDM Libero) also allows players to freely adapt to a variety of positions whilst working within the system.

In Germany, yet another form of Libero was inspired by Beckenbauer at Bayern Munich - Not only did Beckenbauer drive the ball forward into the MF from a deep lying position but was also excellent out of possession further back as a defender behind the CBs from where he dictated the play. ( He also was an excellent dribbler when moving forward). He was the Father of the modern Libero in a way but it continued to develop/adapt - Lother Matthaus played as a sweeper in front of a back four when he became too much of a liability because of his age, to be the last man in defence.

TL;DR

The role of ‘Libero’ has developed in a variety of ways and different elements can been seen re surging or continuing to be developed in the modern game. I think we could see from this that Hürzeler would have a number of Libero options depending on the players available- This article is an easy read and what the above is based (with more explanation).

The evolution of the libero and how it changed the course of so many philosophies

This feature is taken from the Philosophies issue of These Football Times magazine. Order your copy of this beautifully crafted, timeless print edition

thesefootballtimes.co

Had more of a chance to read as was working, but I specifically was thinking about Beckenbauer, who started in midfield before dropping back.

 

[Zeberdi]

Had more of a chance to read as was working, but I specifically was thinking about Beckenbauer, who started in midfield before dropping back.

I realised that which is why you got an unwanted history lesson - Most analysis of the Libero begin quite rightly with the coach that invented the defensive Libero/sweeper role in Switzerland who also used a MF that dropped back behind the CBs as a 4th defender and then its separate development into a hybrid attacking/defensive role in Italy under Herrera.

Having just watched England ( meh), I’m reminded of Maguire’s ability to both defend and advance play into the MF - I suppose he played a sort of pseudo-Libero role for England and Manure - a central defender that has great attacking instincts with the skills necessary for the role - pace and the ability to dribble and good decision making.

 

[prawnsarnies]

Now off the radar?

 

[dazzer6666]

Now off the radar?

Source ?

 

[prawnsarnies]

It was a question.

 

[US Seagull]

Source ?

I assumed it was a question, not a statement?

 

[prawnsarnies]

I assumed it was a question, not a statement?

Did the question mark give it away?

 

[dazzer6666]

It was a question.

No-one on here will know anything