[News] Nigel Farage and Reform

[carlzeiss]

This is how the vetting works at Reform

View attachment 184952

No one seems to have informed this dude that he has failed the test

 

[Zeberdi]

A human being failed Quality Control. Not, we don't want a 'disruptive influence', but a failed human being. When people show you what they are, believe them.

For those who don't know, Isabel Oakeshott is the partner of Richard Tice, part owner of Reform.

A nuance that the current electoral support for Reform is missing is that Farage as with other far right ideologues across Europe in recent years, is embarking on a deliberate ‘ideological moderation’ in order to gain a broader ( and thus more popular) support.

Publicly distancing himself from those that have been rumbled by the media for extreme racist views and intolerable views about asylum seekers serves that very purpose - one could almost be forgiven for thinking that people like Andrew John Parker are useful stool pigeons for Reform.

‘When people show you what they are believe them’ indeed - Farage has been clear in recent years what he believes ( and by the company he keeps) and no amount of virtue signalling from him about the racists campaigning for Reform, will change the fact that extreme right wing parties like Trump’s Republicanism, Le Pen’s National Rally and Farage’s Reform ‘tend to wholly reject liberal democracy and seek more ‘extreme’ and alternative means to taking power.‘

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/countering-radical-right/how-far-right-took-over-mainstream/

 

[nicko31]

No one seems to have informed this dude that he has failed the test

Big donor, another millionnaire, Goldman Sachs.

Do as you're told

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Farage and Tice disagree about Ukraine

 

[Gwylan]

So you’re happy with the current parliament having had a party with a large majority with only 44% of the vote, and the next governing party having a huge majority with low 40s? That’s shit democracy.

The problem that Reform (and the Tories) have is that we had a referendum on this very issue - with a massive vote in favour of keeping FPTP. If Reform/Tories agitate for another voting system and says we should ignore the referendum result, that would give carte blanche to Labour to open talks about closer links with the EU as the opposition have said that referenda results can safely be discarded.

 

[nwgull]

The problem that Reform (and the Tories) have is that we had a referendum on this very issue - with a massive vote in favour of keeping FPTP. If Reform/Tories agitate for another voting system and says we should ignore the referendum result, that would give carte blanche to Labour to open talks about closer links with the EU as the opposition have said that referenda results can safely be discarded.

That is quite an amusing irony. Although it falls down a bit on the fact that the referendum was specifically relating to an AV system to elect MPs and not PR.

 

[nicko31]

Another one heading back to the Tories...

" the vast majority of others standing for Nigel Farage's party are "racist, misogynistic, and bigoted".

I'm shocked

Second Reform candidate quits and backs Tories over 'racism and misogyny'

Georgie David, who was the candidate for West Ham and Beckton, is the second person to defect to the Tories amid allegations of racism within the ranks of Reform UK.

news.sky.com

 

[Guinness Boy]

Another one heading back to the Tories...

" the vast majority of others standing for Nigel Farage's party are "racist, misogynistic, and bigoted".

I'm shocked

Second Reform candidate quits and backs Tories over 'racism and misogyny'

Georgie David, who was the candidate for West Ham and Beckton, is the second person to defect to the Tories amid allegations of racism within the ranks of Reform UK.

news.sky.com

If I believed in conspiracy theory this would look very shady indeed. Just before / just after the election further Reform folk defect to the Tories, eventually Nigel himself too (citing too many loonies / Tice is useless).

The dual effects of which are the extreme right once again marginalised to Reform / EDL but the Tories packed with additional far righters who are clever enough to keep the racism under wraps, thus “tea partying up” the Conservatives.

Farage takes over, anyone to the left of Oswald Mosley is named “Conservative In Name Only” and the last remaining One Nation gang join Labour or the Lib Dems.

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

I don't want his (Farage's) 15% of MPs (70 MPs ) to be 'offset' by more useless wanky liberals and greens.

I want the Tories out, a majority labour government, and a tory reset (hopefully to 'sensible').

PR can f*** off.

... and when you get this majority Govt do you feel it's fair that The Green Party get around 2.7% of the vote and 0.2% of seats? Or that Labour and Conservative get around 60% of the vote and 80% of the seats? FPTP is kept alive by Labour and The Tories, it doesn't give full and fair representation.

 

[pb21]

Another one heading back to the Tories...

" the vast majority of others standing for Nigel Farage's party are "racist, misogynistic, and bigoted".

I'm shocked

Second Reform candidate quits and backs Tories over 'racism and misogyny'

Georgie David, who was the candidate for West Ham and Beckton, is the second person to defect to the Tories amid allegations of racism within the ranks of Reform UK.

news.sky.com

I joined the Bear Party but defected when I discovered that bears defecate in the woods.

 

[Gwylan]

That is quite an amusing irony. Although it falls down a bit on the fact that the referendum was specifically relating to an AV system to elect MPs and not PR.

That's true but I think anyone would hard pressed to say that it showed a dislike of FPTP.

 

[Baldseagull]

If I believed in conspiracy theory this would look very shady indeed. Just before / just after the election further Reform folk defect to the Tories, eventually Nigel himself too (citing too many loonies / Tice is useless).

The dual effects of which are the extreme right once again marginalised to Reform / EDL but the Tories packed with additional far righters who are clever enough to keep the racism under wraps, thus “tea partying up” the Conservatives.

Farage takes over, anyone to the left of Oswald Mosley is named “Conservative In Name Only” and the last remaining One Nation gang join Labour or the Lib Dems.

I think a lot of people are in the wrong party for their views, but by being in Labour or Conservative parties they give themselves a greater chance of being elected.

 

[Baldseagull]

The problem that Reform (and the Tories) have is that we had a referendum on this very issue - with a massive vote in favour of keeping FPTP. If Reform/Tories agitate for another voting system and says we should ignore the referendum result, that would give carte blanche to Labour to open talks about closer links with the EU as the opposition have said that referenda results can safely be discarded.

When most of the well known politicians, Tory and Labour, are advocating FPTP, it sways opinion. The press also made the AV system seem complex, it was killed off by vested interest, in my opinion.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I get your dislike of PR, but it isn't the only alternative to FPTP. I find you to be quite logical and reasoned in most things, but I just don't get your love for FPTP.

I have a hate of anything that gives Farage seats (and Galloway). That's all.

... and when you get this majority Govt do you feel it's fair that The Green Party get around 2.7% of the vote and 0.2% of seats? Or that Labour and Conservative get around 60% of the vote and 80% of the seats? FPTP is kept alive by Labour and The Tories, it doesn't give full and fair representation.

Yes. I am very happy that Farage and chums won't be getting 15% (around 70) seats. Very happy.

If you want the greens to have more seats then they need to become more popular so they get the biggest number of votes in more seats.

Some people imagine that PR and coalitions would create a more centrist government, Like in Germany. No. It would end up more like Israel.

And indeed the anti-FPTP lobby have been crowing about stable governments in Europe. Alas, we are looking at a lurch to extremism in Europe, facilitated by PR.

I would rather have a Tory government than a Tory-Reform-BNP coalition, or indeed a Labout-Green-CPGB-SWP coalition. They way to keep extremists at bay is to keep them out of parliament.

So if it is unfair that Farage does not get dozens of seats, then boo f***ing hoo. I am delighted. Thrilled in fact. Sometimes 'fairness' is nothing more than stupidity. I am quite angry, in fact, that selfish people who can't get their Green or Liberal people into parliament want to change the system to one that will let in lunatics, racists and traitors. Absolute madness.

 

[Gwylan]

When most of the well known politicians, Tory and Labour, are advocating FPTP, it sways opinion. The press also made the AV system seem complex, it was killed off by vested interest, in my opinion.

I have no way of knowing it but I reckon if the referendum had been for another form of PR instead of AV, it would still have lost to FPTP. And if there had been several versions of PR, then FPTP would have been even further ahead.

Of course, a Labour government could re-run the referendum again ... and run the EU referendum at the same time.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Second Reform candidate quits and backs Tories over 'racism and misogyny'

Georgie David, who was the candidate for West Ham and Beckton, is the second person to defect to the Tories amid allegations of racism within the ranks of Reform UK.

news.sky.com

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I have no way of knowing it but I reckon if the referendum had been for another form of PR instead of AV, it would still have lost to FPTP. And if there had been several versions of PR, then FPTP would have been even further ahead.

Of course, a Labour government could re-run the referendum again ... and run the EU referendum at the same time.

What do you mean by "another form of PR?"

AV isn't a form of PR, it doesn't even vaguely approximate to PR while allowing more votes to influence the outcome like STV. It's basically just a marginally less shit version of FPTP than we already have.

I voted for AV in that referendum (I think it might have been the first national vote I was old enough to take part in, having turned 18 just after the 2010 election) but that was mainly because I knew a vote against would inevitably be interpreted as a vote against any sort of reform by the sort of people who think it's acceptable for well under 50% of votes to have any influence on the outcome of an election.

 

[Stato]

If I believed in conspiracy theory this would look very shady indeed. Just before / just after the election further Reform folk defect to the Tories, eventually Nigel himself too (citing too many loonies / Tice is useless).

The dual effects of which are the extreme right once again marginalised to Reform / EDL but the Tories packed with additional far righters who are clever enough to keep the racism under wraps, thus “tea partying up” the Conservatives.

Farage takes over, anyone to the left of Oswald Mosley is named “Conservative In Name Only” and the last remaining One Nation gang join Labour or the Lib Dems.

What makes you think that Nigel would use the anti-tory vote to get himself elected only to join the tory party? I mean, other than all the evidence:

Nigel Farage: I’ll be leader of the UK Conservative Party by 2026

The former UKIP leader has not been a Tory member since the 1990s.

www.politico.eu

Nigel Farage ‘open-minded’ about joining Tories after election

Former Ukip leader hints at move as he prepares to attend launch event for Liz Truss’s Popular Conservatives group next week

www.telegraph.co.uk

https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/nigel-farage-conservatives-reform-politics-b2530019.html

Nigel Farage leaves door open to re-joining Tories after election

The former UKIP leader has been welcomed with open arms by right-wing Tories in Manchester.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Nobby]

If I believed in conspiracy theory this would look very shady indeed. Just before / just after the election further Reform folk defect to the Tories, eventually Nigel himself too (citing too many loonies / Tice is useless).

The dual effects of which are the extreme right once again marginalised to Reform / EDL but the Tories packed with additional far righters who are clever enough to keep the racism under wraps, thus “tea partying up” the Conservatives.

Farage takes over, anyone to the left of Oswald Mosley is named “Conservative In Name Only” and the last remaining One Nation gang join Labour or the Lib Dems.

Telegraph were all over Farage a few weeks back. Oh he’s been wronged, oh he’s a nice guy
Sudddeny he stands against them and they just don’t know what to do - or how best to tackle him.
You could well be right here.

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

I have a hate of anything that gives Farage seats (and Galloway). That's all.

Yes. I am very happy that Farage and chums won't be getting 15% (around 70) seats. Very happy.

If you want the greens to have more seats then they need to become more popular so they get the biggest number of votes in more seats.

Some people imagine that PR and coalitions would create a more centrist government, Like in Germany. No. It would end up more like Israel.

And indeed the anti-FPTP lobby have been crowing about stable governments in Europe. Alas, we are looking at a lurch to extremism in Europe, facilitated by PR.

I would rather have a Tory government than a Tory-Reform-BNP coalition, or indeed a Labout-Green-CPGB-SWP coalition. They way to keep extremists at bay is to keep them out of parliament.

So if it is unfair that Farage does not get dozens of seats, then boo f***ing hoo. I am delighted. Thrilled in fact. Sometimes 'fairness' is nothing more than stupidity. I am quite angry, in fact, that selfish people who can't get their Green or Liberal people into parliament want to change the system to one that will let in lunatics, racists and traitors. Absolute madness.

It's funny how when people disagree we use words such as "Stupid", "Selfish" and "Madness", when in fact all they are saying is Parliamentary seats should represent the will of the people.

My "stupid" view is that is fanatics and extremes don't get any voice their choice is to go underground or become more extreme, I thought we wanted a more fair and equitable society, or is that only if it fits with your agenda?