[Misc] We'll never stop the supply of drugs, so how do we reduce the demand?

[herecomesaregular]

We already did, the sound your mobile makes when you get a notification works in the same ways as a lot of light drugs. People love drugs. If there's no natural ones (sex, dance and so on) they want more of the artificial (chemicals and tech).

The way out of abuse of artificial drugs is to replace as much of human culture as possible with human nature. But this is too late. It is impractical, immoral and in our over-organised world simply impossible to make that turn at this point. When you can dance naked on a square without feeling any shame or guilt and without worrying about the law and your status and people filming you and whatever, then you can live a life without drugs. But we haven't moved in that direction in a long time. We're just accumulating things that we should be ashamed etc about. The relief from these things stopping us from being natural humans is to take drugs and lose a little of all that care and control.

I'm not sure there any many incels whose lives are wrecked by class As tbh. Nor do many people bat an eyelid in Brighton re "outrageous" behaviour unless dancing naked around children or women who don't appreciate your teeny weeny ;- )

 

[beorhthelm]

We already did, the sound your mobile makes when you get a notification works in the same ways as a lot of light drugs. People love drugs. If there's no natural ones (sex, dance and so on) they want more of the artificial (chemicals and tech).

The way out of abuse of artificial drugs is to replace as much of human culture as possible with human nature. But this is too late. It is impractical, immoral and in our over-organised world simply impossible to make that turn at this point. When you can dance naked on a square without feeling any shame or guilt and without worrying about the law and your status and people filming you and whatever, then you can live a life without drugs. But we haven't moved in that direction in a long time. We're just accumulating things that we should be ashamed etc about. The relief from these things stopping us from being natural humans is to take drugs and lose a little of all that care and control.

whats the explaination for the hippies and new agers being the first on the drugs, and just about every tribe discovered having some form of substance for recreation or spritiual use? maybe we're just programmed to find something to distract us, its natural for us to find some chemical adjunct for life.

 

[Javeaseagull]

i have thought for some years now that all drugs should be legally available. They are available illegally anyway so why not cut out the crime? To carry on with prohibition, which has never worked, seems like madness to me. The Daily Mail will never allow it though, sigh.

 

[drew]

Nonsense.

It totally depends on what industry you're in. The City has a long and proud tradition of sealing deals over large amounts of alcohol and there were MGAs, London Market bods and capital providers who looked on large lunchtime consumption as purely positive. Back in the day you'd seal an underwriting deal over several pints in a City boozer and coming in the next morning was still expected. It's changed a bit but the culture is still there. WeWork offers free craft beer taps in its offices after 3pm. On the other hand, drugs are very much frowned upon.

On the other hand for musicians, DJs, event organisers and many others in the entertainment industry NOT taking drugs makes you an outlier. Eventually, of course, many choose to or have to, sober up, but don't think there isn't gear hanging around the periphery.

Footballers can get forgiven if they're good enough. Gazza used to train pissed and Maradona was off his nut all the time. But, in general, they are already tested and not willing to take the risk.

Sorry but that's a load of garbage, the sort of thing perpetuated by those that like to indulge. Are you suggesting no deals were made during the lockdowns?

 

[GREASED WEASEL]

We already did, the sound your mobile makes when you get a notification works in the same ways as a lot of light drugs. People love drugs. If there's no natural ones (sex, dance and so on) they want more of the artificial (chemicals and tech).

The way out of abuse of artificial drugs is to replace as much of human culture as possible with human nature. But this is too late. It is impractical, immoral and in our over-organised world simply impossible to make that turn at this point. When you can dance naked on a square without feeling any shame or guilt and without worrying about the law and your status and people filming you and whatever, then you can live a life without drugs. But we haven't moved in that direction in a long time. We're just accumulating things that we should be ashamed etc about. The relief from these things stopping us from being natural humans is to take drugs and lose a little of all that care and control.

Cheer up Swanny

Marcus Ericsson has just won the Indy500

 

[The Clamp]

If there were better funded mental health, social and child protection services there would be less substance abuse. Engage with vulnerable children and young people before trauma, PTSD and self medication become an issue. Additionally better training and a firmer attitude by government and police towards male exploitation of vulnerable women would help enormously.

That’s not a criticism of the police but of government funding. I deal with the police welfare team on a weekly basis at work and they are absolutely brilliant. But they should not have to be doing that work as well as policing the streets. Though obviously there is some crossover, intelligence gathering etc.

And as someone else posted, not criminalising substance abusers but instead treating it as a health issue would help.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Sometimes, for a young man, you sound needlessly pessimistic.

A few points:

1. People like to alter their state. Not everyone, but plenty. Drink, tobacco, cannabis . . . . gambling.....
2. We all do things we know we shouldn't, whether it's injecting a drug or simply reading NSC when we should be working. Our boundaries vary hugely though.
3. We all think we probably know best, and sometimes break the law when it suits us (from speeding in my case, ahem, to wherever else your threshold for probity ends for the more risk-taker types).
4. We can all handle some things but not others.
5. Humans are extremely poor risk assessors and rate risk in relation to perceived benefit:cost ratio. In other words if we decide we want to do something we downgrade the risk.
6. People may indulge more in 'cheer me up' activities, legal and illegal, when we feel the need.
7. And then there is mental illness, which messes with all the above.

So.....the real drugs problem is the one that ruins lives. It doesn't ruin all lives but it ruins some. But some will be ruined come what may.

And so....everyone's idea of what to do will vary. Mine? I would like to see harsher police intervention for public nuisance. For example, if I had chaotic drug dealing neighbours I would expect an end to it. There is no reason that people should be affected by other people's drug using any more than I should have to put up with some pissed up bloke shouting outside my house.

At the other end of the spectrum, what about a bit of care? I don't think we should have anyone living on the street. Weren't rough sleepers taken into shelter during early Covid? They are certainly back on the street now. We should put and end to it. It would cost 0.001% of the price of the jiggery pokery and spaffing of cash going on in the wider world of 'government spending'. Support and help.

And in between, education and licensed supply to get the criminality out of it. Legalization of cannabis is something I have always opposed (depite being a daily user when at uni) simply because it can trigger psychosis in some, but on reflection, it can probably be managed in a legal framework.

In my ideal world I'd legalise the lot and lobby for the rest of the world to do the same. Grade drugs into types (natural and chemical) and purity with all the shite it gets cut with removed. Serve redundancy notices on the criminals in charge of supply and make production fair trade. Have testing stations at festivals, gigs and clubs. And ringfence the tax made firstly into health services, mainly targeting addiction and mental health. And everyone gets an ID card to purchase and a limit that actually works, unlike the voluntary gambling limits. But secondly into law enforcement, targeting anti-social behaviour and those seeking to undercut the sale system. Very, very tough custodial sentences for supply and any other crime committed while high.

It's never going to happen, nor is that idea perfect, but what we have today is far less fit for purpose IMO.

Ironically, one of the reasons it would never happen is it would take multi national, multi stakeholder co-operation of the sort that is impossible, yet that is assumed by those who have indulged too much and think the world is run by a co-operative Lodge

 

[Guinness Boy]

Sorry but that's a load of garbage, the sort of thing perpetuated by those that like to indulge. Are you suggesting no deals were made during the lockdowns?

Which facts are you specifically challenging? That drugs are a part of the music and entertainment industry? That drinking is acceptable in The City? That WeWork have open beertaps?

Having worked in The City on and off for years, having spent two years in a WeWork and knowing countless DJs and musicians through my misspent youth, friends and family, I can tell you everything I posted is true. Gazza admitted to drinking brandy before training at Everton and it didn't seem to bother them. There are plenty of other stories about addicted players, including ex ones who are now pundits getting on it all night before a day working.

 

[Swansman]

I'm not sure there any many incels whose lives are wrecked by class As tbh. Nor do many people bat an eyelid in Brighton re "outrageous" behaviour unless dancing naked around children or women who don't appreciate your teeny weeny ;- )

No chance this is the case and I don't need to visit to know, because it isn't anywhere. How many sing in the bathroom or car but wouldn't in a mall or while walking on a crowded street? What happens if you need shelter and you randomly go into someones house to find it, would you be welcome in most cases? What happens if you think some random person on the street is very hot and you approach that person to tell it, do you think you'll get contact and approval? What happens if you are hungry and go to the equivalent (a store) of a modern community food storage and just grab something, say thank you and walk?

There's millions of others examples. For 200 000 years we could do those things, now we can not. We're not living in our natural habitat and we're not behaving naturally. This has consequences.

 

[drew]

Which facts are you specifically challenging? That drugs are a part of the music and entertainment industry? That drinking is acceptable in The City? That WeWork have open beertaps?

Having worked in The City on and off for years, having spent two years in a WeWork and knowing countless DJs and musicians through my misspent youth, friends and family, I can tell you everything I posted is true. Gazza admitted to drinking brandy before training at Everton and it didn't seem to bother them. There are plenty of other stories about addicted players, including ex ones who are now pundits getting on it all night before a day working.

I'm referring to you intimating that alcohol is necessary to oil the wheels of a deal in the city. Thought that was obvious from my second sentence.

I would also suggest, having worked in the city myself, that there is less tolerance of drinking than there used to be.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

We already did, the sound your mobile makes when you get a notification works in the same ways as a lot of light drugs. People love drugs. If there's no natural ones (sex, dance and so on) they want more of the artificial (chemicals and tech).

The way out of abuse of artificial drugs is to replace as much of human culture as possible with human nature. But this is too late. It is impractical, immoral and in our over-organised world simply impossible to make that turn at this point. When you can dance naked on a square without feeling any shame or guilt and without worrying about the law and your status and people filming you and whatever, then you can live a life without drugs. But we haven't moved in that direction in a long time. We're just accumulating things that we should be ashamed etc about. The relief from these things stopping us from being natural humans is to take drugs and lose a little of all that care and control.

Cheer up. Humans have been around for 300,000 years, give or take. We are still here, and we smell better than ever!

(We will find away through this, because we always do - we have minds. Things are 'turbulent' at the moment -they frequently are -, but I am confident we will go 'next stage' soon. In fact, in my lifetime, I have myself seen massive improvements across the board. Yes, this has been punctuated by grimness, outrage, madness and death. But that's how disruptive change operates. And humans are the kings (and, recent arrival to the team - yes -step forward: queens) of disruptive change.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

No chance this is the case and I don't need to visit to know, because it isn't anywhere. How many sing in the bathroom or car but wouldn't in a mall or while walking on a crowded street? What happens if you need shelter and you randomly go into someones house to find it, would you be welcome in most cases? What happens if you think some random person on the street is very hot and you approach that person to tell it, do you think you'll get contact and approval? What happens if you are hungry and go to the equivalent (a store) of a modern community food storage and just grab something, say thank you and walk?

There's millions of others examples. For 200 000 years we could do those things, now we can not. We're not living in our natural habitat and we're not behaving naturally. This has consequences.

Evolution? Minds have evolved. Also we have 'society' which also evolves. We have 'community' which is evolving. We are not suppressed apes, if that was what you implied. Yes, we still have our id, and we need it from time to time....but...

 

[The Clamp]

No chance this is the case and I don't need to visit to know, because it isn't anywhere. How many sing in the bathroom or car but wouldn't in a mall or while walking on a crowded street? What happens if you need shelter and you randomly go into someones house to find it, would you be welcome in most cases? What happens if you think some random person on the street is very hot and you approach that person to tell it, do you think you'll get contact and approval? What happens if you are hungry and go to the equivalent (a store) of a modern community food storage and just grab something, say thank you and walk?

There's millions of others examples. For 200 000 years we could do those things, now we can not. We're not living in our natural habitat and we're not behaving naturally. This has consequences.

You really don’t know Brighton, do you.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

In my ideal world I'd legalise the lot and lobby for the rest of the world to do the same. Grade drugs into types (natural and chemical) and purity with all the shite it gets cut with removed. Serve redundancy notices on the criminals in charge of supply and make production fair trade. Have testing stations at festivals, gigs and clubs. And ringfence the tax made firstly into health services, mainly targeting addiction and mental health. And everyone gets an ID card to purchase and a limit that actually works, unlike the voluntary gambling limits. But secondly into law enforcement, targeting anti-social behaviour and those seeking to undercut the sale system. Very, very tough custodial sentences for supply and any other crime committed while high.

It's never going to happen, nor is that idea perfect, but what we have today is far less fit for purpose IMO.

Ironically, one of the reasons it would never happen is it would take multi national, multi stakeholder co-operation of the sort that is impossible, yet that is assumed by those who have indulged too much and think the world is run by a co-operative Lodge

That may all happen. You never know. Who would have thought, 20 years ago, that Ireland would have an openly gay tea sock? West Coast North America is another land, too.

 

[Swansman]

whats the explaination for the hippies and new agers being the first on the drugs, and just about every tribe discovered having some form of substance for recreation or spritiual use? maybe we're just programmed to find something to distract us, its natural for us to find some chemical adjunct for life.

Good and interesting question.

As for hippies and new age people... new, young movements at the time, built on very ambitious ideas breaking against whatever conformity they grew up in - not difficult to see how drugs were more or less required to break those chains since will power is usually not enough to transform people. If you wanted to dance in your backyard after being told be a good Christian and if you wanted to **** Charles Manson after being told to only use your sex organs for reproduction, well then you might need some drugs to push you over the limit so you can adapt to your new community.

As for tribal use of drugs it is also interesting and, I think, connected to how humans are faster than the rest of nature, adapting a lot quicker. Back in the days when most humans were nomads we'd quickly find ways to find food with relative ease. We'd learn that "ok the goats come to drink water by the river every morning" faster than the goats would learn "ok the humans come to kill us by the river every morning". Occasionally this must have given us a lot of spare time to explore other options, such as "what happens if you eat this" or "what happens if you put this on fire and breath the air". Some of that would be pleasant and we'd bring that knowledge along and nothing wrong with that. But I struggle to believe that actual addiction to drugs was a viable way of living in the distant past.

 

[clapham_gull]

If there were better funded mental health, social and child protection services there would be less substance abuse. Engage with vulnerable children and young people before trauma, PTSD and self medication become an issue. Additionally better training and a firmer attitude by government and police towards male exploitation of vulnerable women would help enormously.

That’s not a criticism of the police but of government funding. I deal with the police welfare team on a weekly basis at work and they are absolutely brilliant. But they should not have to be doing that work as well as policing the streets. Though obviously there is some crossover, intelligence gathering etc.

And as someone else posted, not criminalising substance abusers but instead treating it as a health issue would help.

There is no perfect answer. If drugs were legalised, controlled and taxed by governments someone will always undercut it.

The black market tobacco and alcohol market is huge. That said I don't disagree with decriminalisation, but I think people need to be realistic.

I can only take advice with those on the ground like yourself. Stop criminalising drug users and treat it as a health issue.

When I lived in Clapham (people may remember) they had a trial of ignoring cannabis use. Quite nicely the place smelt of weed for a bit because everyone came down the smoke it but it attracted a raft of class A dealers.

Similarly, I lived off a notorious street that had a notorious weed shop that everyone knew about, including the Police. Next door was a well known bar where people went to smoke it.

Just to clear, everyone knew and the bar was often mentioned in the mainstream press / TV regarding discussion on legalising weed.

Randomly the Evening Standard ran a story about the shop, it went unnoticed, A few weeks later the Mail re-ran it as their own, presumably they bought it.

Cue huge Police response, the shop was raided and the owner sent to prison.

After the police "went home" the place was soon awash with drug dealers offering weed but much harder drugs as well. They never bothered because of the shop.

On balance, my experience tells me let the state control weed and legalise it.

 

[herecomesaregular]

In terms of reducing demand, back in my days we only had:



has education moved on a bit for youngsters nowadays?

 

[Guinness Boy]

You really don’t know Brighton, do you.

This. So much of that stuff does happen in Brighton.

From Disco Pete and the piano playing zebra to Jim from Sussex Homeless Support setting up buses as emergency shelters by Black Rock, this city is vastly different to much of the rest of the UK.

It's also SWIMMING in drugs.

 

[The Clamp]

There is no perfect answer. If drugs were legalised, controlled and taxed by the government someone will always undercut it. The black market tobacco and alcohol market is huge.

That said I can only agree with those on the ground like yourself. Stop criminalising drug users and treat it as a health issue.

I agree largely with you, mainly when it comes to recreational drugs. Pills, coke etc will always be available on the black market.
Crack too.

However, the illegal heroin trade would be reduced to almost zero overnight. Very few addicts use heroin as a recreational drug. To start with maybe but once full addiction kicks in, it’s not for fun it’s something they need to stop feeling ill.

Once they have to start sex working, shoplifting, burgling, trading sex for a hit the vast majority want to get off it. Once they see friends die. Once their family cuts them off. They want to get clean.

Providing a clean, medicinal heroin fix in a risk reduced environment would change lives and put users on a pathway to safe detox and rehabilitation. It would also provide a space for vulnerable adults to regularly engage with services.

Without the risk of prison, violence, rape, a bad batch etc.

 

[pocketseagull]

100% agree, before we joined the war on drugs, prescribing heroin was 'the British system'.