[Misc] We'll never stop the supply of drugs, so how do we reduce the demand?

[herecomesaregular]

I agree largely with you, mainly when it comes to recreational drugs. Pills, coke etc will always be available on the black market.
Crack too.

However, the illegal heroin trade would be reduced to almost zero overnight. Very few addicts use heroin as a recreational drug. To start with maybe but once full addiction kicks in, it’s not for fun it’s something they need to stop feeling ill.

Once they have to start sex working, shoplifting, burgling, trading sex for a hit the vast majority want to get off it. Once they see friends die. Once their family cuts them off. They want to get clean.

Providing a clean, medicinal heroin fix in a risk reduced environment would change lives and put users on a pathway to safe detox and rehabilitation. It would also provide a space for vulnerable adults to regularly engage with services.

Without the risk of prison, violence, rape, a bad batch etc.

Do you think this could actually happen though? Most people are scared of legalising drugs but the argument for legalising heroin does seem strong?

 

[Swansman]

Cheer up. Humans have been around for 300,000 years, give or take. We are still here, and we smell better than ever!

(We will find away through this, because we always do - we have minds. Things are 'turbulent' at the moment -they frequently are -, but I am confident we will go 'next stage' soon. In fact, in my lifetime, I have myself seen massive improvements across the board. Yes, this has been punctuated by grimness, outrage, madness and death. But that's how disruptive change operates. And humans are the kings (and, recent arrival to the team - yes -step forward: queens) of disruptive change.

Find a way through what exactly? Drugs? Yeah, possibly. Find a way to preserve our species? Nothing indicates it, look at our ancient brothers who in some cases lasted a lot longer than us just eventually meet their demise. Some birds and reptiles are the kings and queens of disruptive change, lasting 150 million years through all kinds of shit. We're very new on this planet and our potential longevity remains undetermined. The term "improvements" is also highly subjective, objectively speaking there is no such thing - just change.

Will we go to the "next stage" as you say, it is a very interesting question. We may do that but probably we need to sacrifice our current shape. Homo sapiens is aging poorly, heading towards obsoletion which will either cause us to self-destruct or cause a controlled kind of evolution into something else. What homo 2.0 are going to do with those unwilling to accept this is probably not different from the fate of homo neanderthalensis. Maybe we'll keep some homo sapiens in some kind of zoo.

Evolution? Minds have evolved. Also we have 'society' which also evolves. We have 'community' which is evolving. We are not suppressed apes, if that was what you implied. Yes, we still have our id, and we need it from time to time....but...

Our surroudings evolved, not much indicate we or our "minds" (apart from what can be altered from the outside) "evolved". We are suppressed apes.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Good and interesting question.

As for hippies and new age people... new, young movements at the time, built on very ambitious ideas breaking against whatever conformity they grew up in - not difficult to see how drugs were more or less required to break those chains since will power is usually not enough to transform people. If you wanted to dance in your backyard after being told be a good Christian and if you wanted to **** Charles Manson after being told to only use your sex organs for reproduction, well then you might need some drugs to push you over the limit so you can adapt to your new community.

As for tribal use of drugs it is also interesting and, I think, connected to how humans are faster than the rest of nature, adapting a lot quicker. Back in the days when most humans were nomads we'd quickly find ways to find food with relative ease. We'd learn that "ok the goats come to drink water by the river every morning" faster than the goats would learn "ok the humans come to kill us by the river every morning". Occasionally this must have given us a lot of spare time to explore other options, such as "what happens if you eat this" or "what happens if you put this on fire and breath the air". Some of that would be pleasant and we'd bring that knowledge along and nothing wrong with that. But I struggle to believe that actual addiction to drugs was a viable way of living in the distant past.

Well, I imagine that when we lived in small nomadic groups, being strange would have had you chucked out of the community, then you would die. No time to ponce around in a magacity, scavenging in isolation, addicted to opiates. This brutal treament of The Strange, over the generations, has fuelled the demise of genetically determined deviance. We have simply bred out the genes for most of it (unless it gives a survival advantage). But you can be sure that deviance existed, and has always existed.

 

[Swansman]

This. So much of that stuff does happen in Brighton.

From Disco Pete and the piano playing zebra to Jim from Sussex Homeless Support setting up buses as emergency shelters by Black Rock, this city is vastly different to much of the rest of the UK.

It's also SWIMMING in drugs.

Ok so why do you have homeless people if everyone feels it is perfectly normal to just walk into some random house and live there and if everyone feels it is perfectly fine to let anyone do that?

Sorry, I'm not buying it. I'm sure the (proudly repeated) reputation of the city is that it is some kind of utopian paradise where no one is socially conformed, forced or pressured to do anything and free to do anything they like. And no, I don't have to visit to know it is not like that.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I'm referring to you intimating that alcohol is necessary to oil the wheels of a deal in the city. Thought that was obvious from my second sentence.

I would also suggest, having worked in the city myself, that there is less tolerance of drinking than there used to be.

I'm not intimating it. On the insurance side drinking was as expected as wearing black shoes.

Obviously the world of work is constantly changing and the three hour, booze fuelled lunch hour is mostly a thing of the past, but the New Moon in Leadenhall Market is once again looking pretty busy in the afternoons whenever I'm up in town.

 

[clapham_gull]

I agree largely with you, mainly when it comes to recreational drugs. Pills, coke etc will always be available on the black market.
Crack too.

However, the illegal heroin trade would be reduced to almost zero overnight. Very few addicts use heroin as a recreational drug. To start with maybe but once full addiction kicks in, it’s not for fun it’s something they need to stop feeling ill.

Once they have to start sex working, shoplifting, burgling, trading sex for a hit the vast majority want to get off it. Once they see friends die. Once their family cuts them off. They want to get clean.

Providing a clean, medicinal heroin fix in a risk reduced environment would change lives and put users on a pathway to safe detox and rehabilitation. It would also provide a space for vulnerable adults to regularly engage with services.

Without the risk of prison, violence, rape, a bad batch etc.

Well I've learnt something thank you.

Policy need to be influenced by those on the ground like yourself.

I'd have to draw the line at cocaine though, because it turns people into @resholes and there are enough @resholes in the world. If you take cocaine you really aren't fun to be around, you are an @reshole.

It was rife in my industry and Soho on a Friday night was @reshole central. I'm so glad I left that environment.

 

[Swansman]

Well, I imagine that when we lived in small nomadic groups, being strange would have had you chucked out of the community, then you would die. No time to ponce around in a magacity, scavenging in isolation, addicted to opiates. This brutal treament of The Strange, over the generations, has fuelled the demise of genetically determined deviance. We have simply bred out the genes for most of it (unless it gives a survival advantage). But you can be sure that deviance existed, and has always existed.

There's probably always been "strange". There's probably never been a time where as much is "strange" as it is now, logically speaking. Nothing is strange until it is said to be strange, and in a society where people absorb the amount of information we do now, we hear more and more about this or that being strange, weird, immoral or unacceptable.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

We are suppressed apes.

Speak for youself. I'm on 'the spectrum' and living like an ape, in any way shape or form, would kill me. I like my safe space, order, cleanliness, better food, shower every day, clean my teeth twice a day, no 'preservatives', moderate exercise, balance, electronic music, civilised company..... I don't like pointless gratuitous risk taking, but I like to step up and engage with new things, carefully. I like to take risks, carefully.

Perhaps I'm part of the next wave of human evolution?



(I think you're simply young. When I was your age I was like a dog with two cocks, at war with the establishment, and even madder and more capricious than I am now ).

 

[Guinness Boy]

Ok so why do you have homeless people if everyone feels it is perfectly normal to just walk into some random house and live there and if everyone feels it is perfectly fine to let anyone do that?

Sorry, I'm not buying it. I'm sure the (proudly repeated) reputation of the city is that it is some kind of utopian paradise where no one is socially conformed, forced or pressured to do anything and free to do anything they like. And no, I don't have to visit to know it is not like that.

Why must you insist on thinking you know more about a city and team you've never visited than people who've lived this life for years or decades. You're embarrassing yourself.

There are a lot of homeless people, believe it or not, who are either perfectly happy to be homeless or totally unable to knock on anyone's door. That's why the local homeless charities work with them directly to get them into a better place. I'm not sure addicted homeless guy knocking on vulnerable pensioner's door late at night would work out well for either.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Find a way through what exactly? Drugs? Yeah, possibly. Find a way to preserve our species? Nothing indicates it, look at our ancient brothers who in some cases lasted a lot longer than us just eventually meet their demise. Some birds and reptiles are the kings and queens of disruptive change, lasting 150 million years through all kinds of shit. We're very new on this planet and our potential longevity remains undetermined. The term "improvements" is also highly subjective, objectively speaking there is no such thing - just change.

Will we go to the "next stage" as you say, it is a very interesting question. We may do that but probably we need to sacrifice our current shape. Homo sapiens is aging poorly, heading towards obsoletion which will either cause us to self-destruct or cause a controlled kind of evolution into something else. What homo 2.0 are going to do with those unwilling to accept this is probably not different from the fate of homo neanderthalensis. Maybe we'll keep some homo sapiens in some kind of zoo.




Our surroudings evolved, not much indicate we or our "minds" (apart from what can be altered from the outside) "evolved". We are suppressed apes.

I mean find a way to not become extinct. Someone a few years ago posted something on here along the lines of 'humans are destroying the planet so we all need to die'. I think he got a perma ban for Covid denial.

Humans are amazing. I'm very pleased to be one. There is no other life form that has what we have. We will find 'a way' because it is inevitable. It's what we do.

(That said it is quite possible some nutter could blow it all to shit - nuclear weapons, biologics..... - which is why I like to speak up. Speaking up probably does nothing but I feel it is better than not speaking up. If I have changed the attitude of one person in the last 50 years, that will do me.).

Anyway....you are unusual for your level of engagement, given who/where/what you are, and I consider that impressive. Encouraging.

 

[herecomesaregular]

Why must you insist on thinking you know more about a city and team you've never visited than people who've lived this life for years or decades. You're embarrassing yourself.

There are a lot of homeless people, believe it or not, who are either perfectly happy to be homeless or totally unable to knock on anyone's door. That's why the local homeless charities work with them directly to get them into a better place. I'm not sure addicted homeless guy knocking on vulnerable pensioner's door late at night would work out well for either.

I had a man ring my bell at 0500 asking for money to turn his electric back on, he had a young child etc. It didn't work as we had the same scam in Worthing at the group home (except a kindly resident did give £2 at 3am but mostly out of fear, when he buzzed her flat).

 

[Guinness Boy]

I mean find a way to not become extinct. Someone a few years ago posted something on here along the lines of 'humans are destroying the planet so we all need to die'. I think he got a perma ban for Covid denial.

Humans are amazing. I'm very pleased to be one. There is no other life form that has what we have. We will find 'a way' because it is inevitable. It's what we do.

(That said it is quite possible some nutter could blow it all to shit - nuclear weapons, biologics..... - which is why I like to speak up. Speaking up probably does nothing but I feel it is better than not speaking up. If I have changed the attitude of one person in the last 50 years, that will do me.).

Anyway....you are unusual for your level of engagement, given who/where/what you are, and I consider that impressive. Encouraging.

We all do, and should, speak up. That's kind of how NSC works. And how society works at a macro level.

But for every HWT there is a PPF, for every Sir Kier a Boris Johnson, for every conspiracy theorist a rebutter. Speaking out is mandatory IMHO. Being listened to may be a special skill, given to only a few, but it does not make talking, writing, having ideas and opinions in any way futile.

 

[The Clamp]

Do you think this could actually happen though? Most people are scared of legalising drugs but the argument for legalising heroin does seem strong?

Trials of prescription heroin and “shooting galleries” in other countries such as the Netherlands have proved successful. And there are a few cases of people who have access to pure heroin and know what they’re doing who have lived healthy lives with employment, good health and good family relationships.

Will it ever be made legal? In the U.K.? Never. No political party would ever risk losing an election over it. Additionally our penal system is rapidly mirroring the U.S model of private prisons who need inmates to make a profit.. They lobby government to keep drugs illegal and keep a steady incoming supply of inmates. It’s their bread and butter. There are currently 14 private prisons and more planned, in England and Wales. They’ll need filling.
Prisons have been at the forefront of privatisation in the UK since the first privately managed jail was opened thirteen years ago. Prison privatisation is now the flagship of the Government's private finance initiative (PFI).

And the public just would not have it. And I do understand the fear. I really do. But there’s a reason The Daily Mail is the most read newspaper in the U.K.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

We all do, and should, speak up. That's kind of how NSC works. And how society works at a macro level.

But for every HWT there is a PPF, for every Sir Kier a Boris Johnson, for every conspiracy theorist a rebutter. Speaking out is mandatory IMHO. Being listened to may be a special skill, given to only a few, but it does not make talking, writing, having ideas and opinions in any way futile.

We march on, brother

 

[The Clamp]

Well I've learnt something thank you.

Policy need to be influenced by those on the ground like yourself.

I'd have to draw the line at cocaine though, because it turns people into @resholes and there are enough @resholes in the world. If you take cocaine you really aren't fun to be around, you are an @reshole.

It was rife in my industry and Soho on a Friday night was @reshole central. I'm so glad I left that environment.

Cocaine is unpleasant to be around.

 

[Swansman]

Why must you insist on thinking you know more about a city and team you've never visited than people who've lived this life for years or decades. You're embarrassing yourself.

There are a lot of homeless people, believe it or not, who are either perfectly happy to be homeless or totally unable to knock on anyone's door. That's why the local homeless charities work with them directly to get them into a better place. I'm not sure addicted homeless guy knocking on vulnerable pensioner's door late at night would work out well for either.

What is embarrassing is actually believing you live in a totally different world than the rest of the developed world.

But ok, to make you happy I will from now on make exceptions for Brighton any time I comment on the development of society and humanity. So to rephrase the paragraph that led us into Brighton:

"When you can dance naked on a square without feeling any shame or guilt (except in Brighton, where no one feels any shame or guilt) and without worrying about the law (except in Brighton where there is no law) and your status (except in Brighton where not one single human cares about status) and people filming you and whatever (except in Brighton because no one would film you if you act like an oddball), then you can live a life without drugs (except in Brighton because everyone needs drugs no matter the situation). But we haven't moved in that direction (except in Brighton where liberty is thriving, social constructions do not exist and there are no laws) in a long time. We're just accumulating things that we should be ashamed etc about (except in Brighton because the influence from media/celebrities/trends/other people does not exist in Brighton). The relief from these things stopping us from being natural humans is to take drugs and lose a little of all that care and control (except in Brighton where no one has any worries or feel they have to control their urges)."

Better?

 

[maffew]

Decriminalisation, manufacture here, tax it, slap it with big warning signs on it,educate kids.. remove Colombia cartels, Afghan drug lords, Chinese labs, county lines gangs cutting it with god knows what out of the supply chain to end users. Dont know the actual solution but I'm fairly sure there's
approaches to the problem to make things safer than having organised and dangerous criminals running the show

 

[herecomesaregular]

Decriminalisation, manufacture here, tax it, slap it with big warning signs on it,educate kids.. remove Colombia cartels, Afghan drug lords, Chinese labs, county lines gangs cutting it with god knows what out of the supply chain to end users. Dont know the actual solution but I'm fairly sure there's
approaches to the problem to make things safer than having organised and dangerous criminals running the show

Yeah but the question was about demand not supply? Obviously they are linked but I was interested in whether people think demand can be dampened?

 

[vegster]

Fortunately my employer has won the War on Drugs for me ...

 

[beorhthelm]

...But I struggle to believe that actual addiction to drugs was a viable way of living in the distant past.

because you've lept from "using drugs to deal with change of human culture" to addiction. addition is a consequence of peoples managing those drugs and their reactions to them. my point was humans seek out chemical substances that change mood or perception, that this is not a consequence of dealing with the modern world. the hippy movement demostrates this, drop out of modern world and all the stresses and strains, and straight on to the pot and acid.