[Albion] You're the ref: Veltman v Rice

[Guinness Boy]

Christ. Of course he was. Sure, Welbeck wasn't anywhere near where he was looking to play it, wasn't on his toes and had 2 Arsenal centre backs near him. Sure, he's looking down the line where there's no Brighton players. Sure he's shaping to kick it down the line. But he said it was for Welbeck

I can't believe people are believing this but I'll leave it there otherwise I'll lose my sanity.

He can't pass it to anyone as the ball isn't on the pitch any more. Everything else is irrelevant.

 

[Jim in the West]

These ex pros don't think they have to know the rules. They don't need to spend ten minutes reading anything because their successful playing careers have made them experts on every aspect of the game by osmosis. If their view is ever challenged they just have to shout 'You've never played the game' as their trump card and swan off back to the golf club bar where they can all reinforce each other's ignorance.

This incident sparked me into reading the rules for possibly the first time in my 50+ years of watching footie. It's been quite useful - and actually (compared to the laws of cricket) they are quite short. The fact that pundits who are paid a LOT of money to give their expert opinion clearly haven't bothered to spend 30 minutes reading the rules is bloody annoying. It literally takes half an hour to read the current version of the Laws of the Game. My annoyance, however, has been tempered by the fact that Danny Welbeck clearly HAS read the rules. That clip of him saying that it's a second yellow is priceless!

 

[Stato]

(BTW I'm agreeing with you here / backing up your point and then addressing others on this thread)

As Dermot Gallagher correctly points out, Rice flicks the ball out of play. Therefore he has committed the bookable offence of delaying the restart of play. The ball is now dead.

Veltman hasn't done anything LEGALLY wrong. He can't take the kick with a rolling ball because Rice knocks it dead. Anyone who knows the laws of the game would have come to the same conclusion as the ref.

What he was intending was almost certainly to take the kick quickly and hit Rice, who is right next to him, in the hope a card is shown. That kick would have been with a rolling ball and from the wrong spot. But he can't execute it. Rice's intervention gets him sent off correctly, whereas letting Veltman get on with it probably would have just reset the kick.

TL;DR - legally the outcome was entirely correct. You can't caution Veltman for thinking something.

Yes. Exactly right. Veltman was obviously casting his line in attempt to catch one. Rice effectively saved him the bother by throwing himself into the keepnet. Joel feigned innocence, secretly knowing that his catch was right on the lake's legal boundary, but not over it. Absolutely infuriating if you're an Arsenal fan. Genius housery if you're a Brighton fan.

Unbelievable that a podcast calling itself 'The Rest is Football' has in this case, exhibited practically no understanding of what it really means to be a football fan. Unbelievable that is, until you realise that none of the contributors have ever been football fans, just football players. Every time one of them says 'You haven't played the game', it should be mandatory to respond 'And you've never paid to get in.'

 

[Guinness Boy]

Yes. Exactly right. Veltman was obviously casting his line in attempt to catch one. Rice effectively saved hime the bother by throwing himself into the keepnet. Joel feigned innocence, secretly knowing that his catch was right on the lake's legal boundary, but not over it. Absolutely infuriating if you're an Arsenal fan. Genius housery if you're a Brighton fan.

Unbelievable that a podcast calling itself 'The Rest is Football' has in this case, exhibited practically no understanding of what it really means to be a football fan. Unbelievable that is, until you realise that none of the contributors have ever been football fans, just football players. Every time one of them says 'You haven't played the game', it should be mandatory to respond 'And you've never paid to get in.'

I love The Rest is Politics but have never been tempted by it's football sibling. My instinct is that it's just MotD with swearing.

Always found fan and journalist pods more interesting anyway. Monday Night Club is ok but Sutton is the worst on it. Guardian Football Weekly and Albion Roar still my go tos.

 

[TugWilson]

I can`t help wandering whether the average football fan has got his priorities twisted when , you see a potentially career ending disgrace of a tackle on a very good player with a massive future , get less attention than an entitled club who`s player commits a stupid act that get`s him a second yellow .

 

[Stato]

Who exactly was he trying to knock the quick free kick to if it was a genuine attempt.....

There's 11 Brighton players in our own half and he is looking to smack it down the pitch. So you tell me why he is wanting to take the quick free kick.

PLEASE can we be sensible.

In an attempt to protect your sanity, I think that most of us are agreeing with you that both were acting a bit silly. Surely nobody who has witnessed much of Joel Veltman's career is really buying the 'innocent attempt to find Danny upfield' argument. We're just saying that he didn't actually commit an offence and has left himself enough plausible deniability to get away with his actions.

It happens all the time and there's only such a big fuss about it now because it seemingly cost one of the title favourites some ground. In the opening round of games, Ben Brereton Diaz was even closer to the mark in seemingly feigning injury from Schar's putting his head in his face. Schar sent off for violent conduct. BBD booked, but I think that was for the initial challenge. He could have easily got a second for feigning injury and couldn't have had too many complaints. Players are always trying to get a fractional advantage. I'd perhaps be more sympathetic* to Arsenal's complaints about Joel's housery if they hadn't themselves spent the whole first half diving, tactical fouling and being in the ref's face over every decision. You sleep with dogs and you get fleas. You try to cross a clever Dutchman and you end up in the canal.

*- Shh.. Of course I wouldn't - Just plausible deniability again.

 

[Berty23]

If Veltman was kicking it to no one then Rice is even more of a mug. Let him kick it.

The only way Pedro incident is comparable would be if a player had ball in hands and about to throw and he knocked it out.

 

[Seagull58]

I totally disagree. I've watched this multiple times from 2 different angles. Veltman would have kicked the ball if Rice had not flicked it away. The ball would not have hit Rice either. In flicking the ball away Rice moved directly into Veltman's swing path and got accidently kicked. No doubt in my mind.
Also, to address the question who was he kicking it to, people are saying there was nobody downfield but the wide angle shows Welbeck near the halfway line and starting to run into the right channel, exactly where Veltman was aiming.

 

[Seagull58]

Who exactly was he trying to knock the quick free kick to if it was a genuine attempt.....

There's 11 Brighton players in our own half and he is looking to smack it down the pitch. So you tell me why he is wanting to take the quick free kick.

PLEASE can we be sensible.

Welbeck is near the halfway line and starting a run into the right channel, exactly where Veltman is aiming.

 

[Seagull58]

Christ. Of course he was. Sure, Welbeck wasn't anywhere near where he was looking to play it, wasn't on his toes and had 2 Arsenal centre backs near him. Sure, he's looking down the line where there's no Brighton players. Sure he's shaping to kick it down the line. But he said it was for Welbeck

I can't believe people are believing this but I'll leave it there otherwise I'll lose my sanity.

That's absolutely what it looks like; Veltman aiming to kick it long into the right channel and Welbeck starting a run into that channel.

 

[Hotchilidog]

It is utterly bizarre to be having a debate of such length about a decision that the ref actually got correct!

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

Welbeck is near the halfway line and starting a run into the right channel, exactly where Veltman is aiming.

He's absolutely nowhere near the halfway line nor does he ever start to run into that channel but let's agree to disagree

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

In an attempt to protect your sanity, I think that most of us are agreeing with you that both were acting a bit silly. Surely nobody who has witnessed much of Joel Veltman's career is really buying the 'innocent attempt to find Danny upfield' argument. We're just saying that he didn't actually commit an offence and has left himself enough plausible deniability to get away with his actions.

Yep. Agree with all of that. I agree it's a yellow for Rice. Just couldn't handle people saying Veltman was "just" trying to pass the ball which, as shown in this thread, some genuinely believe. Doesn't matter either way!

 

[aolstudios]

I can`t help wandering whether the average football fan has got his priorities twisted when , you see a potentially career ending disgrace of a tackle on a very good player with a massive future , get less attention than an entitled club who`s player commits a stupid act that get`s him a second yellow .

Twisted, innit

 

[aolstudios]

If Veltman was kicking it to no one then Rice is even more of a mug. Let him kick it.

The only way Pedro incident is comparable would be if a player had ball in hands and about to throw and he knocked it out.

This ^

 

[Stato]

Yep. Agree with all of that. I agree it's a yellow for Rice. Just couldn't handle people saying Veltman was "just" trying to pass the ball which, as shown in this thread, some genuinely believe. Doesn't matter either way!

As Orwell put it, "The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but, on the contrary, that it was impossible to avoid joining in."

 

[TugWilson]

Yep. Agree with all of that. I agree it's a yellow for Rice. Just couldn't handle people saying Veltman was "just" trying to pass the ball which, as shown in this thread, some genuinely believe. Doesn't matter either way!

I`ve just looked again and it looks like Yankuba is about 10 yds up the line from Joel , so a possible break up the wing .

We all know how it went down , but no one made Rice toe the ball away , so he can only blame himself , and we all know how it would have gone down had it been the other way round

 

[Greg Bobkin]

It is utterly bizarre to be having a debate of such length about a decision that the ref actually got correct!

I was just about to post that if we try hard enough, we can keep this thread on page one until after the international break

 

[PortuGull]

 

[Beanstalk]

Exactly.

If Rice had let it hit him. then Kavanagh could have had the "common sense" chat with both of them to calm things down.
Rice took that away by committing the offence which has been selected as this season's naughty step.

100% and it would've been harder to say that Rice was actively delaying the restart.

The reality is he ticked almost every box according to the laws to deserve a booking.