Barnet Seagull
Luxury Player
Data can be tricky. I'd be interested to know the average quality of chance against him. Seems like he's had no chance with a fair amount of stuff this season. I wonder how that compares to other 'keepers.
[Albion] Bart Verbruggen SINGS a 5-year deal
- Thread starter Stumpy Tim
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GT49er
Well-known member
Probably th.e ones that believed they were being fobbed off with Brighton's third choice GK - they weren't, of course; he was Brighton's first choice GK that the new manager and GK coach didn't like. More than one Chelsea manager has obviously disagreed with them, and the stats don't support them either. He did get a bit complacent and his form dropped - and even now I don't think he's quite back to the level he was before it all fell apart for him under de Zerbi - but worst keeper ever?
macbeth
Dismembered
I’d rather have a good goalkeeper now. Being inexperienced or underdeveloped is much more telling here than in other positions, as it leads to us conceding goals and therefore points. Martinez, Sels, Pickford and even Henderson have shown how really good shot-stoppers make a difference in games and therefore a difference across the whole season. Bart has been really disappointing this season and if it were up to me I’d take a £50M offer if it came our way for him.
- Nov 15, 2006
- 6,406
He turned into a surly dick by the end of his time here and he did have the occasional ricket in him but I remember far far more quality saves from him than Bart has managed this seasonProbably th.e ones that believed they were being fobbed off with Brighton's third choice GK - they weren't, of course; he was Brighton's first choice GK that the new manager and GK coach didn't like. More than one Chelsea manager has obviously disagreed with them, and the stats don't support them either. He did get a bit complacent and his form dropped - and even now I don't think he's quite back to the level he was before it all fell apart for him under de Zerbi - but worst keeper ever?
He was mostly quality under Potter
Sanchez and Verbruggen top the “cock up” charts from PL keepers this season don’t they?
I'm pretty patient but don't think I can wait that long!
Nobby Cybergoat
Well-known member
- Jul 19, 2021
- 9,790
It's not great, but it's not the be all and end all.
I always think about David James. Loads of cock ups, but loads of incredible saves and all in all a very good keeper.
Fair to comment then that Bart isn't making big saves or putting in stunning performances to offset the mistakes though.
I think we'd all hoped to see more improvement than we've seen given the playing time investment we've given to such a young keeper.
I always think about David James. Loads of cock ups, but loads of incredible saves and all in all a very good keeper.
Fair to comment then that Bart isn't making big saves or putting in stunning performances to offset the mistakes though.
I think we'd all hoped to see more improvement than we've seen given the playing time investment we've given to such a young keeper.
albionalex
Well-known member
That data is available. His post-shot xG per shot on target is 0.31, which is 10th out of 21 keepers.
In terms of saving attempts, Verbruggen is the worst in the entire PL. Sample size - this PL season.
Whitechapel
Famous Last Words
Look on the bright side, he’s only second worst of the regular keepers if you sort by Per 90!
And he’s something like 4th or 5th worst if you include all keepers.
sussex_guy2k2
Well-known member
- Jun 6, 2014
- 4,865
Two things -
1) I think “really disappointing” is incredibly harsh given he’s not playing behind a consistent defence and hasn’t all season; and,
2) you’ve named keepers who all play for sides that play totally different tactical systems to us, none of which expose their keeper nearly as much. I suspect Bart would be a very good keeper in all of those teams’ systems.
It shows the great logic at the heart of Manchester United in 2025 that they think Verbruggen will be an improvement on Onana based on this
What’s your view on that tactical system with the squad we have?
Then look at something like PSXg-GA (Post-Shot Expected Goals minus Goals Allowed - Positive numbers suggest better luck or an above average ability to stop shots - PSxG is expected goals based on how likely the goalkeeper is to save the shot)
He’s absolutely rock bottom of every EPL keeper that’s played this season. More data here : https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/keepersadv/Premier-League-Stats
macbeth
Dismembered
I do not think ‘really disappointing’ is harsh at all. In fact I think he’s been crap. Joint most for errors leading to goals over two seasons, by far the worst at saving attempts this season. Settled defence or not, he simply does not make the saves to offset the mistakes. I can only go off what I’ve seen, and it hasn’t been good, and though it would be unfair to ignore external factors entirely, in my view they don’t provide that much mitigation.
The three keepers I listed are all good shot-stoppers. That is the gist of the point. As far as I’m aware, our tactical system doesn’t preclude us from having goalkeepers who are good at saving shots. If the mistakes were as a result of him being more exposed, I’d agree with you, but more often than not it’s simply because he isn’t very good at saving things. All of the keepers I listed face shots, like Verbruggen does, they save them, Bart doesn’t. Yes teams do create better chances against us because of the system, so maybe that has something to do with it. But we created several fantastic chances in both games against Palace. I remember watching Henderson make multiple world-class saves and thinking Bart would never do that for us in a million years. And in any case, Fab in my view is going in a very different direction to RDZ’s system, which was the system he was bought to play under initially.
One final point on his potential, which you didn’t mention, so I’m making it more generally, what are we doing all this for? I can see why the club could think they’d make a handsome ROI on him, it’s the model after all, but footballing-wise, I just don’t think it makes sense to have to put up with three or so years of having a poor goalkeeper just for him to have six or so good months and then be sold. All very well if he’s a midfielder who we can take out of the firing line, but generally with goalkeepers, it’s your no. 1 or bust. A good shot-stopper would’ve made a massive difference this season, IMO.
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Terry Butcher Tribute Act
Well-known member
- Aug 18, 2013
- 4,095
Verbruggen doesn't seem to be getting any better, I his agent wants to somehow flog him to Bayern or United then see you later. Same as Sanchez, take the money and try someone else.
sussex_guy2k2
Well-known member
- Jun 6, 2014
- 4,865
I think there’s only probably two keepers in the league that would look good behind our system, and both of them are miles out of our price range.
My criticism would be too often little adaption to tactics when holding a lead (game management) and under pressure, or once the Webster injury occurred. That high line …. a succession of teams including PL whipping boys have taken the p from it, the acres of space to attack.
sussex_guy2k2
Well-known member
- Jun 6, 2014
- 4,865
I wasn’t commenting on your last paragraph, and quite frankly it’s the club’s model whether we like it or not. Personally, I’d like to see us keep our best players to try and challenge more regularly higher up, but that’s unlikely to happen so what can we do.
As to your first point, he has made mistakes, albeit many of those were earlier in the season. Given this is his first full season as a starting keeper for us, I do think that’s to be expected. I can’t honestly think of a big mistake he’s made in the last 10-15 games (no, I don’t think he’s was at fault for Villa’s opener). I can think of a number of saves he’s made where he’s kept us in games though, including against Leicester when he saved us from further embarrassment.
As to your second paragraph, shot stopping isn’t an equal measurement though. Those teams all sit deeper, stay narrower when defending, don’t leave as many men forward etc. We expose our defence and our keeper terribly in this system, under this manager, and I don’t honestly think there’s a keeper in the league, outside of maybe Allison, who would look particularly good in our team.
Stylistically though, I don’t think he’s the best fit for us. He clearly isn’t that comfortable coming off his line which isn’t ideal considering how high our defence plays, and he definitely needs to work at claiming balls in the air.
Just FYI, I’m not saying I think he’s perfect - I really, really don’t. I just think it’s been a baptism of fire for him and he’s had next to no protection this season because of how we’re set up.
sussex_guy2k2
Well-known member
- Jun 6, 2014
- 4,865
I agree. And it requires a keeper with a very specific skill set to play that role. Also, you’re not going to be making as many typical saves as a keeper that plays behind a deeper lying defence would.
Incidentally, I actually think Steele’s skill set would better suit this side, which says something as I am not a fan of Steele in the slightest.