[Albion] Fabian Hurzeler: IN or OUT

[Justice]

Yes, we drew lots - that's football.
Injuries never help, and by God we seem to be plagued by them, which clearly affects confidence - that's football.
We managed to turn an utterly demoralising 7 goal defeat into a following 6 match winning run - that's football, too.
Potter shmotter...football, too.
It's football, and we'll see many more losing, drawing and winning runs.
And the proverbial lady hasn't started singing yet.

Injuries should be an opportunity for a bench player to grab with both hands a stake a claim. Enciso should be playing and improving with minutes now Rutter is out, oh yeah Fab didn’t like him and shipped him out. Oh well.

 

[Justice]

I find it hard to believe Dunk is being instructed to play the way he has been playing recently.

Well who else tells him to push up? If he’s doing his own thing then the manager may as well not be here.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Well who else tells him to push up? If he’s doing his own thing then the manager may as well not be here.

It’s not just about “pushing up.” His all round game has been poor recently. In an ideal world he wouldn’t be playing. Both Igor and JPVH, and especially Webster and JPVH, have shown to been better options this season. in my opinion our defensive woes are less to do with Hurzeler and more to do with injuries and recruitment.

 

[dazzer6666]

So the answer then is no, you can’t tell me what he’s building on the pitch. It’s all the injuries fault. Which is nonsense because he’s had a strong squad to pick from every game this season. Today for example, that was pretty much a first 11 out there with the possible exceptions of Veltman and Georginio but then there were quite a few games this season when he chose not to start Georginio so even that’s debateable.

Our squad is 15th in the table in terms of wages - add in the daft losses to injury and 10th is arguably punching well above our weight. We were so, so poor tactically yesterday though - several times the players had the ball and were looking for the pass and seeing nothing (and getting very obviously frustrated with each other), the first 10-15 mins we were so open down the flanks, Bart and the CBs took an age to get the ball moving allowing their press to swarm all over us which should have meant space further up the pitch but we then still went short anyway etc etc etc.

Think Georginio was having his minutes managed carefully earlier on

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Injuries should be an opportunity for a bench player to grab with both hands a stake a claim. Enciso should be playing and improving with minutes now Rutter is out, oh yeah Fab didn’t like him and shipped him out. Oh well.

Enciso has been given plenty of chances. He rarely took them though. I think it was the correct decision to loan him out and look for a better replacement.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

I’m on the fence for now.

i do see some hope but FH has to learn his lessons quickly. I thought he had post Forest thrashing when we dropped off and played solid first, flair second but the last 4 games we have gone back to the old ways.
If TB is to stick with the young fella, he is going to have to spend again on 3 or 4 pacy, strong defenders. We simply cannot play that high with defenders that slow

Realistically, to play this system we probably need 5-6 starters still. That just isn’t going to happen.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

It’s not just about “pushing up.” His all round game has been poor recently. In an ideal world he wouldn’t be playing. Both Igor and JPVH, and especially Webster and JPVH, have shown to been better options this season. in my opinion our defensive woes are less to do with Hurzeler and more to do with injuries and recruitment.

If you have injuries, you adapt to the players you have fit. He doesn’t do that.

And he’s the manager. He’s the one pushing them to such an extent in training that injuries of such regularity are now the norm.

Should we have recruited better? Absolutely. But is he getting the most out of these players? For a lot of us, it’s a clear “no”.

And the worst thing is, they don’t look like they want to play for him.

 

[giveusfalmerplease]

On the stream I was watching the commentators "felt sorry" for Bart and put down his poor form to having such a changeable back 3/4?

 

[Couldn't Be Hyypia]

For the first time yesterday, and I only listened to the radio, I found myself wondering what another manager would have done with this squad.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

If you have injuries, you adapt to the players you have fit. He doesn’t do that.

And he’s the manager. He’s the one pushing them to such an extent in training that injuries of such regularity are now the norm.

Should we have recruited better? Absolutely. But is he getting the most out of these players? For a lot of us, it’s a clear “no”.

And the worst thing is, they don’t look like they want to play for him.

He’s left with Dunk and Cashin to chose alongside JPVH. Dunk is struggling to get the absolute basics right at the moment….how do you adapt to this? Bring on Cashin?

And he did get the best out of Igor and especially Webster. Sadly both were injured in games.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

He’s left with Dunk and Cashin to chose alongside JPVH. Dunk is struggling to get the absolute basics right at the moment….how do you adapt to this? Bring on Cashin?

And he did get the best out of Igor and especially Webster. Sadly both were injured in games.

Without sounding too patronsing, you coach them… Dunk’s fallen off a cliff this season under this manager. Maybe it’s age, injuries… or maybe the system just doesn’t suit him… I mean why would being stuck on the half line suit a defender with the turning pace of an oil tanker?

As for Cashin, the initial signs don’t look promising, but he’s a natural CB. Why aren’t we giving him a chance in that position?

Re Igor and Webster… did he get the best out of them or did the system just suit them more? Both have substantially more pace than Dunk, after all.

The point overall is simple though - he doesn’t adapt to the players he has available. People can keep making excuses for him, but his job is to adapt tactically to a) who he has available and b) who the opposition are and what they require tactically. He does neither of these things, for an apparent tactical genius.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

On the stream I was watching the commentators "felt sorry" for Bart and put down his poor form to having such a changeable back 3/4?

And being totally exposed every game.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Without sounding too patronsing, you coach them… Dunk’s fallen off a cliff this season under this manager. Maybe it’s age, injuries… or maybe the system just doesn’t suit him… I mean why would being stuck on the half line suit a defender with the turning pace of an oil tanker?

As for Cashin, the initial signs don’t look promising, but he’s a natural CB. Why aren’t we giving him a chance in that position?

Re Igor and Webster… did he get the best out of them or did the system just suit them more? Both have substantially more pace than Dunk, after all.

The point overall is simple though - he doesn’t adapt to the players he has available. People can keep making excuses for him, but his job is to adapt tactically to a) who he has available and b) who the opposition are and what they require tactically. He does neither of these things, for an apparent tactical genius.

Should you really need to coach the basics of defending to a 33 year old experienced former England player?

It’s not just about being pushed up the field, he’s making mistakes when he’s deeper…like woefully playing the Palace guy onside when all he needed to do was move forward one step. You can take your pick against Leicester. This isn’t about tactics, it’s about struggling with the basics.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Should you really need to coach the basics of defending to a 33 year old experienced former England player?

It’s not just about being pushed up the field, he’s making mistakes when he’s deeper…like woefully playing the Palace guy onside when all he needed to do was move forward one step. You can take your pick against Leicester. This isn’t about tactics, it’s about struggling with the basics.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Different players excel in different systems, because they have different attributes. It’s really that simple. If you lose one player with one set of attributes and have to replace him with a player with a different set, you need to adapt your system and the players around them to cover their weaknesses and bring out their strengths. It’s management 1o1.

The fact that we’ve conceded the same kind of goal so often this season, and many more similar chances where it takes one pass through us to open us up, you have to eventually put that on the manager. The first and third goals yesterday are a prime example of that.

But you’re right. If you struggle to understand such basic conceps, then we’ll agree to disagree.

 

[boik]

Did you just watch MOTD, what the hell is Dunk doing playing that much further forward than the back 3 for Mbeumo first goal. As Keown said, he'd never occupy that type of position, and it made the goal a simple 2 pass move straight through and Dunk miles away in no mans land and Pervis, JPVH far to far apart from each other.

Dunk didnt just do that, he was obvs instructed to........ why? which puts that on coaching team.

Why weren't the others instructed to defend as high as Dunk in that case? Your argument doesn't make sense if you think that Dunk was acting under instructions and the others weren't.

 

[ROSM]

Our squad is 15th in the table in terms of wages - add in the daft losses to injury and 10th is arguably punching well above our weight. We were so, so poor tactically yesterday though - several times the players had the ball and were looking for the pass and seeing nothing (and getting very obviously frustrated with each other), the first 10-15 mins we were so open down the flanks, Bart and the CBs took an age to get the ball moving allowing their press to swarm all over us which should have meant space further up the pitch but we then still went short anyway etc etc etc.

Think Georginio was having his minutes managed carefully earlier on

My concern is that we have been poor tactically for a while now. That lethargy/clueless behaviour at the back and rigid structured movements wasn't a new thing yesterday.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

I guess let's look at it this way

What is the calibre of say, our centre backs at the moment. Probably mid table, arguably bottom half with a declining Dunk if I'm being harsh, but there are easily 8 teams with better partnerships than us.


What is the calibre of our wing backs available? Probably mid table. Frustrating to not have had Ferdi as hoped.

What is the calibre of our wingers? I'd say just above mid table but with Minteh in his first PL season a lot rests on Mitoma.

What is the calibre of our centre mid? One future superstar and then not sure. Maybe just above mid table on Baleba alone.

What is the calibre of our centre forwards? Just above mid table. Welbeck might achieve his first ever season of getting 10 goals. Yesterday we played a partnership where they both have above 15 (I think?)

Based on that, with this squad, anywhere around 8th to about 11th feels right to me.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Different players excel in different systems, because they have different attributes. It’s really that simple. If you lose one player with one set of attributes and have to replace him with a player with a different set, you need to adapt your system and the players around them to cover their weaknesses and bring out their strengths. It’s management 1o1.

The fact that we’ve conceded the same kind of goal so often this season, and many more similar chances where it takes one pass through us to open us up, you have to eventually put that on the manager. The first and third goals yesterday are a prime example of that.

But you’re right. If you struggle to understand such basic conceps, then we’ll agree to disagree.

All well and good (and very theoretical), but if you’ve got players who continually get the basics wrong, lose the ball or get themselves sent off or have to play out of position it doesn’t matter what system you’re trying to play.

 

[jonny.rainbow]

Why weren't the others instructed to defend as high as Dunk in that case? Your argument doesn't make sense if you think that Dunk was acting under instructions and the others weren't.

He clearly was instructed to be playing there.
I saw it in real time at the match. We were in possession of the ball and he stepped up to overload the midfield and create another passing lane. Estupinan and Wieffer simultaneously went narrow.
Then we lost possession and one ball split Van Hecke and Estupinan.

It was a tactic. A tactic that was exploited by Frank. That is on Hurzeler not Dunk.

 

[Bold Seagull]

He clearly was instructed to be playing there.
I saw it in real time at the match. We were in possession of the ball and he stepped up to overload the midfield and create another passing lane. Estupinan and Wieffer simultaneously went narrow.
Then we lost possession and one ball split Van Hecke and Estupinan.

It was a tactic. A tactic that was exploited by Frank. That is on Hurzeler not Dunk.

It did but we still had enough players back to pick up Mbuema because there was no one coming down their right. Both VH and Estupinan were free to pick up Mbuema. Whether Dunk picked the right circumstances to step out for this tactic I guess only the players and coaching staff will know.