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[News] A woman is a woman.



Hugo Rune

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Feb 23, 2012
24,730
Brighton
Yes, it is a term used by one group of people about another group of people with whom they have a philosophical difference. I don't know which, if any, position is correct, but I don't like the inherent slur in the term.

I did a bit of reading and the following is from: https://journal.nds.ox.ac.uk/index.php/JNDS/article/download/176/79

TERFs are members of a branch of feminism whose ideological beliefs hinge on the idea that sex is biological and fixed, rejecting the idea of socially constructed gender. In essence, TERFs don’t recognise transgender women as women because they believe that a person’s sex is based purely on their biology and is therefore fixed.

Not sure where the court ruling leaves this. I also dislike the term because it has been used effectively to silence people with alternative views. This Law PhD thesis makes that case: https://researchportal.port.ac.uk/en/studentTheses/terfbigottransphobe-we-found-the-witch-burn-her

#TERF/Bigot/Transphobe – We found the witch, burn her!: a contextual constructionist account of the silencing of feminist discourse on the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act 2004, and the policy capture of transgender ideology, focusing on the potential impacts and consequences for female-only spaces for victims of male violence
Dillon, S. (Author). 2021

I don't think that this area ever gets discussed rationally in public discourse and terms like TERF don't help.
TERF is an initialism of Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. It is very accurate of the half dozen or so radical feminists that ignited cancel culture on University campuses about 10 years ago. But, it's clearly seen as a derogatory and toxic term these days so I understand why some don't like its use.

For me, it fuels the culture war alongside the absolutist dogma of the extremist elements of the pro-Trans lobby who should have been fighting for equity rather than liberation all these years.

Society and human evolution are clearly not ready for Trans liberation at this point in time, it might take many centuries or millennia before this is possible. And to be clear, when I say 'liberation' I mean the view that trans-women are women or trans-men are men. Biologically this is not the case and now the law centres on that fact.

So, trans-exclusionary feminists are a small branch of feminism and face enormous criticisms from the majority of the rest of the feminist movement. In short, they are not popular.

They also face huge opposition from mainstream LGBTQ+ groups such as the charity Stonewall and most major LGBTQ+ publications such as Pink News:

In terms of the PhD thesis, this is most certainly nothing to do with law at all. It's criminology and gender from the faculty of social science. There is a lot of 'opinion' in there that is not evidenced in a robust way (such as you should get in a science or law thesis). But two things stick out.

1. "This thesis examines the clash between transgender ideology and women’s rights in the context of female-only spaces in the male violence against women sector."

So we're looking at spaces such as women's refuge centres. There is a comment about trans-women violence against women in chpt 3. I can't find any of the evidence (maybe I've not looked hard enough) to support the central pillar of Trans-exclusionary feminism which is that trans-women pose a threat to women. Personally I believe that trans-women should not have access to women only refuges but that is not because of the threat of trans-women to women, that is because I believe that trans-women should have their own exclusive refuges able to help with their particular issues which they need more than ever after the court ruling and the outbreak of unmitigated transphobia unleashed upon their community.

2. The author compares her study to that of one conducted by the LGBTQ+ campaign group Stonewall. Reading between the lines, it seems that very few Trans people agreed to speak to her because (I suspect) unlike a student of real science, students of social science tend to come from a background of having a belief (normally lived) and spending their time creating dubious bits of 'academic study' to qualify their opinions.

IMG_6942.png
 
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Curious Orange

Punxsatawney Phil
Jul 5, 2003
10,502
On NSC for over two decades...
All things being equal I really don’t think many people want transpeople to be unhappy, or would begrudge them happiness.
But of course it’s become a lot more complicated than that.

I think the legal decision has actually taken a lot of the social complexity away.

It is understandable that some in the trans community are upset about how the law has been clarified (not changed), but they do need to get on with it now and advocate for how their needs can be catered for in a practical and legal way.
 




DJ NOBO

Well-known member
Jul 18, 2004
7,310
Wiltshire
I think the legal decision has actually taken a lot of the social complexity away.

It is understandable that some in the trans community are upset about how the law has been clarified (not changed), but they do need to get on with it now and advocate for how their needs can be catered for in a practical and legal way.
We are now heading in the right direction. The clarification should help everyone once the practicalities like toilet options have been settled.

However even with the clarification, trans people with a deep need to be recognised as being a different sex from which they were born , will likely still push for that recognition. With the backing of some powerful players.

“Be kind”, “I just want everyone to get on” and “live and let live” are lazy ways to look at all this.

Because in broad terms appeasing transpeople, negatively impacts on other sections of society. It’s a clash, with far reaching consequences.
 
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Curious Orange

Punxsatawney Phil
Jul 5, 2003
10,502
On NSC for over two decades...
An interesting interview from the Times with a representative from TransActual.



A complaint made by the trans lobby is that there wasn't any trans lobby representations allowed to the court, which is true, but rather ignores the fact that both Amnesty International and the EHRC were making representations on their side of the argument, and Stonewall didn't feel the need to intervene at all.



Appellant
Aidan O’Neill KC
Spencer Keen
(Instructed by Balfour + Manson LLP (Edinburgh))

Respondent
Ruth Crawford KC
Lesley Irvine
(Instructed by Scottish Government Legal Directorate)

Intervener – Sex Matters
Ben Cooper KC
David Welsh
(Instructed by Gilson Gray LLP (Edinburgh))

Intervener – Scottish Lesbians; The Lesbian Project; LGB Alliance (written submissions
only)

Karon Monaghan KC
Beth Grossman
(Instructed by Doyle Clayton (London))

Intervener – (Equality and Human Rights Commission)
Jason Coppel KC
Zoe Gannon
(Instructed by Equality and Human Rights Commission)

Intervener – Amnesty International UK (written submissions only)
Sarah Hannett KC
Raj Desai
Roisin Swords-Kieley
(Instructed by Russell-Cooke LLP (Putney, London))​
 
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jcdenton08

Joel Veltman Fan Club
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Oct 17, 2008
17,003
It was the quote marks that made me think it was a quote. Have I been whooshed ?

And does this refer to the same thing ?
Indeed it does. The photos are very damning. Such a shame to see such a hate filled, violent people :(
 


BadFish

Huge Member
Oct 19, 2003
19,696
An interesting interview from the Times with a representative from TransActual.



A complaint made by the trans lobby is that there wasn't any trans lobby representations allowed to the court, which is true, but rather ignores the fact that both Amnesty International and the EHRC were making representations on their side of the argument, and Stonewall didn't feel the need to intervene at all.

Thanks for posting this, my heart goes out to people who are now feeling scared and confused by this ruling.

Very concerning for a group that already struggles.

I feel like we have seriously missed the point on this thread. I suppose that is inevitable, given we have little input from the groups affected by this. And what we have we haven't really listened to.

Apologies to those people.
 
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Hugo Rune

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Feb 23, 2012
24,730
Brighton
Indeed it does. The photos are very damning. Such a shame to see such a hate filled, violent people :(
This is very much the narrative of the right wing media and anti-Trans perspective.

What's of interest is of course, the data around Trans-Women violence, especially to women. It's would be really good if those advocating for the assumption that trans-women are violent and put women at risk have any real evidence of this?

I can't find any data on this at all.
 


jcdenton08

Joel Veltman Fan Club
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Oct 17, 2008
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This is very much the narrative of the right wing media and anti-Trans perspective.

What's of interest is of course, the data around Trans-Women violence, especially to women. It's would be really good if those advocating for the assumption that trans-women are violent and put women at risk have any real evidence of this?

I can't find any data on this at all.
I personally think anyone making public terroristic threats of beheadings or other serious crime towards a specific group of people is a criminal offence (and I’d be right in thinking that) and would want these dangerous people off the streets and at the very least given a psychiatric competency evaluation.

Calling to indiscriminately behead a group of people is not a legitimate form of protest.
 


chip

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
1,440
Glorious Goodwood
This is very much the narrative of the right wing media and anti-Trans perspective.

What's of interest is of course, the data around Trans-Women violence, especially to women. It's would be really good if those advocating for the assumption that trans-women are violent and put women at risk have any real evidence of this?

I can't find any data on this at all.
there's some here: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/ which seems to be the reason Kathleen Stock got lableled TERF and then harassed out of her job at Sussex.

Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):
76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%

Essentially, trans women offend in the same patterns as men. Data from other countries in that link.
 




DJ NOBO

Well-known member
Jul 18, 2004
7,310
Wiltshire
This is very much the narrative of the right wing media and anti-Trans perspective.

What's of interest is of course, the data around Trans-Women violence, especially to women. It's would be really good if those advocating for the assumption that trans-women are violent and put women at risk have any real evidence of this?

I can't find any data on this at all.
The photos and what they show, surely speak for themselves .
What have right wing agendas got to do with it ?
 
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Hugo Rune

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Feb 23, 2012
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Brighton
The photos and what they show, surely speak for themselves .
What have wider agendas got to do with it ?
Firstly, there are always people who over stretch the mark in regards to protests. Wider agendas are always interested in the linking a whole movement to a single placard.

Secondly, the label 'hate filled' is appropriate for someone holding a placard like that (not a movement in general), but to be precise, I would only label someone 'violent' if there is evidence they commit violence not advocate for it. To clarify, I think those placards are outrageous but I'm not going to fall for the right wing media narrative that they represent the aims of protest and not the idiotic individuals holding them.
 


BadFish

Huge Member
Oct 19, 2003
19,696
Firstly, there are always people who over stretch the mark in regards to protests. Wider agendas are always interested in the linking a whole movement to a single placard.

Secondly, the label 'hate filled' is appropriate for someone holding a placard like that (not a movement in general), but to be precise, I would only label someone 'violent' if there is evidence they commit violence not advocate for it. To clarify, I think those placards are outrageous but I'm not going to fall for the right wing media narrative that they represent the aims of protest and not the idiotic individuals holding them.

It's weird that people seem to be falling for that, and that it is being discussed on this thread.

Still I guess it shows we still have a long way to go with this subject.
 


fly high

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2011
2,277
in a house
This is very much the narrative of the right wing media and anti-Trans perspective.

What's of interest is of course, the data around Trans-Women violence, especially to women. It's would be really good if those advocating for the assumption that trans-women are violent and put women at risk have any real evidence of this?

I can't find any data on this at all.
Police records will not give you any data on this as crimes, including rape, are only recorded as being committed by a women.
 




Hugo Rune

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Feb 23, 2012
24,730
Brighton
there's some here: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/ which seems to be the reason Kathleen Stock got lableled TERF and then harassed out of her job at Sussex.

Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):
76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%

Essentially, trans women offend in the same patterns as men. Data from other countries in that link.
There is so much in that paper to debunk. Thanks so much for providing this link as it demonstrates the absolute lack of credibility for the sort of assumptions that Stock and her cohort make.

To clarify a few things for you.

1. Kathleen Stock was enlisted by the Tory government to support their culture war against trans people. She gave evidence after she resigned at Sussex (due to what she says was pressure from colleagues and her Union, UCU coming out against her).

2. Do you consider Kathleen Stock the best academic to present evidence to Parliament when she is clearly bias against trans-women and rejects the science around gender dysphoria, instead believing that gender is entirely a social construct?

3. She only has one study to quote. From one country, that is Sweden. If you look at sample size

4. She picks and chooses which areas to include or mention data on GRCs. For example, with the Swedish study, the implies that crime rates of trans -women could be much higher because non-GRC trans people are not included. Then in the crime figures she quotes, she uses no context (such as they include non-GRCs) which could weaken her bias laden conclusion. This is important because you'd want to see how many criminals claim that they are trans AFTER conviction in order to try and get a more favourable sentence or conditions in prison. Kathleen Stock is the last person on the planet who would look at including those sorts of caveats because she is a philosopher and activist arguing for an overall viewpoint not a scientist or statistician interested in impartiality or truth.
 




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