[Albion] Fabian Hurzeler: IN or OUT

[ROSM]

Estupinan’s game went down a few notches from summer 2023 onwards, so under both RDZ and FH. During 2022/23 I recall pundits saying he was as good as any LB in the PL. Misses Caicedo? They dovetailed effectively.

He was badly injured twice under RDZ once stupidly when put on against ajax away. Maybe he hasn't recovered. I do think it's also partly tactical in that we aren't making the best of what we have rather than having a dogmatic formation and shoehorning a rapidly decreasing number into it

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Sorry - I've been out all afternoon. Lots of posts I'd like to reply to individually, but it would all get a bit dull.

And @Kalimantan Gull has made some of the points I would anyway: Bournemouth have spent the best part of £250m, have an experienced, well-regarded manager who is light years ahead of what we have, and they are 1 (one) point ahead of us.

I'll also add that for all Iraola's supposed superiority, Hurzeler did the double over him this season.

But, I also agree with many of those who triumph Bournemouth's style of play which, at times, is fast, dynamic and vibrant. How much of that is down to the players recruited and how much down to the manager?

Bournemouth seem to have far more fast, powerful, athletic players than we do. I'm not sure how many of our players I'd say fit that description - not many.

And their football may be more vibrant than our own right now but, as the league table shows, it's similarly effective to our own.

I can't imagine Bournemouth fans went home happy when they lost at Leicester (we didn't) nor lost at home to Ipswich (we didn't) nor losing twice to shitly-managed Brighton...

Yet that appears to be FH style, athletic players who can play at a high intensity for 90 minutes. The fact as you suggest, we don’t have them means we should adjust, we haven’t.

Must catch up soon, will PM you.

 

[Balders]

Very fair.
We probably are at least at the same level of RdZ’s last 3 months, but I don’t think that is a good thing, because that was pretty dire as well

Re the £200m has the personnel really changed that much from last season?
Saturday’s team, the only differences were Wieffer, Minteh and O’Riley, that leaves a pretty strong core.

I think you’re right re investment, but at some point you need to develop/evolve, otherwise we might have already peaked at 6th…… who knows

If the only differences were Wieffer, Minteh and O'Riley from last season, that side finished 11th, so in pure terms of league position we are possibly performing better.

But that's the investment part, but it was also to replace - replacing two world class midfielders for a start and that's difficult. I see the blame is beginning to shift onto the Recruitment Team - we were ahead of the curve a few years ago - are we expecting other's not to catch on or catch up?

The root cause of all of this is the TB's strategy - a strategy that has worked incredibly well to get us through the divisions and dare I say, established in the Premier League. The final step to break into the Top 6 is the hardest - we are competing with Clubs with deeper pockets than ourselves, so whether it be wages, guaranteed European football or trophies, when we unearth gems, we are going to lose them and the whole process has to start again, hence progress won't be linear, there will be bumps in the road and we'll have a number of transition seasons. TB/PB are acutely aware of that - I'm not convinced a good majority of the fan base get it.

To use a golf analogy, if you pop players handicaps into a pyramid, mid to high handicappers will fill the bulk of the pyramid. Those with handicaps lower than 5 will basically just be the tip, scratch golfers would be a miniscule part of the tip - that's how hard it is to get to the top.

There have been multiple reasons why some parts of this season haven't gone well, some are down to FH, some are down to the players and it's difficult not to mention our injury issues. Based on what we've got, I think we are doing ok - the fact that we have a number of raw, exciting players to develop is the best bit, but compromises on expectations have to be made.

Have we already peaked at 6th - possibly, but my glass is half full!

 

[AstroSloth]

Pre season when Iraola was appointed they were amongst the favourites for relegation at 5/2 so that is a pretty impressive season with a new manager imo.

How many Albion fans would prefer FH over Iraola given a choice now

Did you see their transfer window that season? Absolutely insane window and I've said it before.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

If the only differences were Wieffer, Minteh and O'Riley from last season, that side finished 11th, so in pure terms of league position we are possibly performing better.

But that's the investment part, but it was also to replace - replacing two world class midfielders for a start and that's difficult. I see the blame is beginning to shift onto the Recruitment Team - we were ahead of the curve a few years ago - are we expecting other's not to catch on or catch up?

The root cause of all of this is the TB's strategy - a strategy that has worked incredibly well to get us through the divisions and dare I say, established in the Premier League. The final step to break into the Top 6 is the hardest - we are competing with Clubs with deeper pockets than ourselves, so whether it be wages, guaranteed European football or trophies, when we unearth gems, we are going to lose them and the whole process has to start again, hence progress won't be linear, there will be bumps in the road and we'll have a number of transition seasons. TB/PB are acutely aware of that - I'm not convinced a good majority of the fan base get it.

To use a golf analogy, if you pop players handicaps into a pyramid, mid to high handicappers will fill the bulk of the pyramid. Those with handicaps lower than 5 will basically just be the tip, scratch golfers would be a miniscule part of the tip - that's how hard it is to get to the top.

There have been multiple reasons why some parts of this season haven't gone well, some are down to FH, some are down to the players and it's difficult not to mention our injury issues. Based on what we've got, I think we are doing ok - the fact that we have a number of raw, exciting players to develop is the best bit, but compromises on expectations have to be made.

Have we already peaked at 6th - possibly, but my glass is half full!

Precisely.

Some of us wallow in a commitment to immediacy, whether it be for instant decisions (no VAR) or for wanting the manager out when several bad things happen in close proximity, or more than once.

It gets to the point, reading NSC, where I start to hanker for the manager to be sacked just so I can move on.

 

[Weststander]

Did you see their transfer window that season? Absolutely insane window and I've said it before.

I mentioned that at the time too. Certs for relegation and stinking the PL out, that January they spent huge money on 5 or 6 first teamers, bought and borrowed. All similar it seemed with pace and more pace.

 

[A1X]

Were you privy to TB’s expectations then? Not quite sure why he would mention top 5 a month ago if true.

TB was at Cheltenham. I hope I’m not going to be held accountable for things I’ve blurted out after an afternoon of free booze on a jolly in this way.

 

[Balders]

TB was at Cheltenham. I hope I’m not going to be held accountable for things I’ve blurted out after an afternoon of free booze on a jolly in this way.

If he stated an expectation of Top 5 in those circumstances and people hung on to that statement and ignored the bigger picture expectations, then not making Top 5 suits an ever increasing agenda to sack FH, regardless of the fact that he may (and probably will) meet the bigger picture expectation. To be sacked by TB on the back of an interview at Cheltenham would make us a laughing stock!

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

If the only differences were Wieffer, Minteh and O'Riley from last season, that side finished 11th, so in pure terms of league position we are possibly performing better.

But that's the investment part, but it was also to replace - replacing two world class midfielders for a start and that's difficult. I see the blame is beginning to shift onto the Recruitment Team - we were ahead of the curve a few years ago - are we expecting other's not to catch on or catch up?

The root cause of all of this is the TB's strategy - a strategy that has worked incredibly well to get us through the divisions and dare I say, established in the Premier League. The final step to break into the Top 6 is the hardest - we are competing with Clubs with deeper pockets than ourselves, so whether it be wages, guaranteed European football or trophies, when we unearth gems, we are going to lose them and the whole process has to start again, hence progress won't be linear, there will be bumps in the road and we'll have a number of transition seasons. TB/PB are acutely aware of that - I'm not convinced a good majority of the fan base get it.

To use a golf analogy, if you pop players handicaps into a pyramid, mid to high handicappers will fill the bulk of the pyramid. Those with handicaps lower than 5 will basically just be the tip, scratch golfers would be a miniscule part of the tip - that's how hard it is to get to the top.

There have been multiple reasons why some parts of this season haven't gone well, some are down to FH, some are down to the players and it's difficult not to mention our injury issues. Based on what we've got, I think we are doing ok - the fact that we have a number of raw, exciting players to develop is the best bit, but compromises on expectations have to be made.

Have we already peaked at 6th - possibly, but my glass is half full!

Good post.

To be fair I do think the fan base understands it, and 6th was an exceptional achievement, but I do believe the coach had a lot to do with it.
You can’t have one, without the other.

Realistically, we are a 7th-12th team IMO. Will we go above that line, who knows, but would suggest falling below it is more likely, as teams catch up and overtake. The Brighton, Bournemouth, Fulham, Palace and Brentford are all fighting in their own middle to upper league.

To me we don’t look as good as any of those this season playing style wise, forget the results.

The trouble is IMO, this year we have lost ground, certainly playing style wise, we’ll see where we finish.

 

[Flounce]

Did you see their transfer window that season? Absolutely insane window and I've said it before.

As insane as ours this season?

Yeah I know, ours weren’t PL ready and for the future….so who made the right signings? Signing PL ready players makes more sense to me. Bournemouth appear to have done that.

Anyway regardless of experience yada yada yada I would much prefer Iraola to FH as our manager, but it is what it is and I admire anyone who thinks Fab was a good appointment, you have more faith than me on what I’m seeing from him. Seems a slow learner to me.

 

[Balders]

Good post.

To be fair I do think the fan base understands it, and 6th was an exceptional achievement, but I do believe the coach had a lot to do with it.
You can’t have one, without the other.

Realistically, we are a 7th-12th team IMO. Will we go above that line, who knows, but would suggest falling below it is more likely, as teams catch up and overtake. The Brighton, Bournemouth, Fulham, Palace and Brentford are all fighting in their own middle to upper league.

To me we don’t look as good as any of those this season playing style wise, forget the results.

The trouble is IMO, this year we have lost ground, certainly playing style wise, we’ll see where we finish.

I agree that we are currently a 7th-12th team with the caveat of the squad currently available. With players coming back, a current fit squad is probably good enough for 6th-10th, but it is what it is.

We have an army of young, inexperienced players coming back from loan spells, FH gets a season under his belt and potential new recruitment over the summer - for me that's something to be excited about, rather than knee jerking as some do on here. The season isn't technically over, we might sneak 8th place and secure a European spot with visits to the likes of FC Carrier Bag et al. If we don't, it's not a disaster with plenty to look forward to.

Potentially our squad is much better than the likes of Palace, Fulham, Muff & Brentford, but possibly not currently. Fans are either insular and/or have very short memories - Muff were on a shocking run until recently, Brentford hadn't won at home for ages and Palace shipped 10 goals in two games recently.....

 

[Flounce]

I agree that we are currently a 7th-12th team with the caveat of the squad currently available. With players coming back, a current fit squad is probably good enough for 6th-10th, but it is what it is.

We have an army of young, inexperienced players coming back from loan spells, FH gets a season under his belt and potential new recruitment over the summer - for me that's something to be excited about, rather than knee jerking as some do on here. The season isn't technically over, we might sneak 8th place and secure a European spot with visits to the likes of FC Carrier Bag et al. If we don't, it's not a disaster with plenty to look forward to.

Potentially our squad is much better than the likes of Palace, Fulham, Muff & Brentford, but possibly not currently. Fans are either insular and/or have very short memories - Muff were on a shocking run until recently, Brentford hadn't won at home for ages and Palace shipped 10 goals in two games recently.....

And we lost badly to two of the four you mentioned, scraped a last minute win against one and were somewhat lucky against the other. I don’t agree that we are potentially better than any of them either.

Hopefully our run in will make me look a mug, I do not want to be right.

 

[Bozza]

But that's the investment part, but it was also to replace - replacing two world class midfielders for a start and that's difficult. I see the blame is beginning to shift onto the Recruitment Team - we were ahead of the curve a few years ago - are we expecting other's not to catch on or catch up?

I've possibly been the only person to mention recruitment, so in case this "blame" is referring to me, I'd like to counter it...

I'm absolutely not blaming the recruitment team for anything at all. Given the success we've had, that would be churlish in the extreme.

In fact I think I'm generally more forgiving than many when it comes to the duds and also-rans we pick up.

Recruiting for a Premier League football club is a gamble. When you don't have untold riches and need to find overlooked value, it's even more of a gamble and we've won far more gambles than we've lost. And some of the wins have been HUGE.

I was merely bringing recruitment into it because some of the Hurzeler-out-ers!, who are drawing comparisons with Bournemouth, don't seem to be considering the squads when making the comparison of footballing styles.

Some clubs - Palace and Bournemouth certainly, and Brentford less so, always strike me as having an abundance of strong, fast, powerful players and we rarely do. They sub two off and two more come on.

In contrast, we have an abundance of quite slightly built, skilful and technical players.

That won't be by chance, it will be by design, but differing squads are going to lend themselves to different styles of play.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

I agree that we are currently a 7th-12th team with the caveat of the squad currently available. With players coming back, a current fit squad is probably good enough for 6th-10th, but it is what it is.

We have an army of young, inexperienced players coming back from loan spells, FH gets a season under his belt and potential new recruitment over the summer - for me that's something to be excited about, rather than knee jerking as some do on here. The season isn't technically over, we might sneak 8th place and secure a European spot with visits to the likes of FC Carrier Bag et al. If we don't, it's not a disaster with plenty to look forward to.

Potentially our squad is much better than the likes of Palace, Fulham, Muff & Brentford, but possibly not currently. Fans are either insular and/or have very short memories - Muff were on a shocking run until recently, Brentford hadn't won at home for ages and Palace shipped 10 goals in two games recently.....

Sure, but potential unfortunately is very much just that.

I too certainly believe we can make Europe, but West Ham is huge in that context.
I’m afraid FH has not evolved as much as I thought he would, we concede the same goals, and the style just isn’t there for me.

Another bid summer recruitment wise, as we need more athletic defenders. I’m not sure anyone thought that having spent £200m last year.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

I've possibly been the only person to mention recruitment, so in case this "blame" is referring to me, I'd like to counter it...

I'm absolutely not blaming the recruitment team for anything at all. Given the success we've had, that would be churlish in the extreme.

In fact I think I'm generally more forgiving than many when it comes to the duds and also-rans we pick up.

Recruiting for a Premier League football club is a gamble. When you don't have untold riches and need to find overlooked value, it's even more of a gamble and we've won far more gambles than we've lost. And some of the wins have been HUGE.

I was merely bringing recruitment into it because some of the Hurzeler-out-ers!, who are drawing comparisons with Bournemouth, don't seem to be considering the squads when making the comparison of footballing styles.

Some clubs - Palace and Bournemouth certainly, and Palace less so, always strike me as having an abundance of strong, fast, powerful players and we rarely do. They sub two off and two more come on.

In contrast, we have an abundance of quite slightly built, skilful and technical players.

That won't be by chance, it will be by design, but differing squads are going to lend themselves to different styles of play.

But then the onus is on the manager and coaching staff to adapt accordingly, defensively we aren’t.

 

[Flounce]

But then the onus is on the manager and coaching staff to adapt accordingly, defensively we aren’t.

My point exactly, our manager is not in any way inspiring regardless of some good results. He is NOT getting the best out of the squad, injury hit or not. Confusion and chaos is what I am seeing now, we are looking lost on the field and end up chasing every game, abandoning any defence.

 

[Balders]

I've possibly been the only person to mention recruitment, so in case this "blame" is referring to me, I'd like to counter it...

I'm absolutely not blaming the recruitment team for anything at all. Given the success we've had, that would be churlish in the extreme.

In fact I think I'm generally more forgiving than many when it comes to the duds and also-rans we pick up.

Recruiting for a Premier League football club is a gamble. When you don't have untold riches and need to find overlooked value, it's even more of a gamble and we've won far more gambles than we've lost. And some of the wins have been HUGE.

I was merely bringing recruitment into it because some of the Hurzeler-out-ers!, who are drawing comparisons with Bournemouth, don't seem to be considering the squads when making the comparison of footballing styles.

Some clubs - Palace and Bournemouth certainly, and Brentford less so, always strike me as having an abundance of strong, fast, powerful players and we rarely do. They sub two off and two more come on.

In contrast, we have an abundance of quite slightly built, skilful and technical players.

That won't be by chance, it will be by design, but differing squads are going to lend themselves to different styles of play.

Not aimed at you - plenty have referenced it, a few posts naming David Weir

 

[Bozza]

But then the onus is on the manager and coaching staff to adapt accordingly, defensively we aren’t.

We've been playing with central midfielders at right-back for what feels like forever, we used another one as centre-back, Webster was playing with painkilling jabs every week because we had no-one else, and now a half-crocked Dunk is doing the same.

I'd suggest it's tough for any defensive unit at this level of the game, trying to deal with that much disruption. Margins are fine.

 

[Mancgull]

I agree that we are currently a 7th-12th team with the caveat of the squad currently available. With players coming back, a current fit squad is probably good enough for 6th-10th, but it is what it is.

We have an army of young, inexperienced players coming back from loan spells, FH gets a season under his belt and potential new recruitment over the summer - for me that's something to be excited about, rather than knee jerking as some do on here. The season isn't technically over, we might sneak 8th place and secure a European spot with visits to the likes of FC Carrier Bag et al. If we don't, it's not a disaster with plenty to look forward to.

Potentially our squad is much better than the likes of Palace, Fulham, Muff & Brentford, but possibly not currently. Fans are either insular and/or have very short memories - Muff were on a shocking run until recently, Brentford hadn't won at home for ages and Palace shipped 10 goals in two games recently.....

I think we are likely to lose JP and Mitoma this summer so squad strength may decline, although a quality centre back with pace coming in would mitigate to a degree.

 

[Flounce]

We've been playing with central midfielders at right-back for what feels like forever, we used another one as centre-back, Webster was playing with painkilling jabs every week because we had no-one else, and now a half-crocked Dunk is doing the same.

I'd suggest it's tough for any defensive unit at this level of the game, trying to deal with that much disruption. Margins are fine.

Maybe we should be going back to basics and being low block and trying to be solid in defence then? The go to for any manager on a shit run..other than ours.