[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[crookie]

I know a few of you guys on here have family out there, so have a lot more of a stake in this than some of us, but we've all been in this together, threadwise, and I hope politically and militarily in hope since day 1. I can categorically say, when this started, the one scenario that I would never have predicted was the US coming down on the side of Russia. This literally blows my mind, the cold War enemy, sucked up to, the democratic nation, invaded, now abandoned unless it signs over its mineral wealth. I'm still struggling to come to terms with it, but as been said, we all have to recalibrate how we see the US. Once the guarantee of our security, now a friend of war criminals, at least in the highest circles of power. I wonder whether the defence/security establishment of the US will roll with this new reality or fight back.

 

[The Clamp]

I know a few of you guys on here have family out there, so have a lot more of a stake in this than some of us, but we've all been in this together, threadwise, and I hope politically and militarily in hope since day 1. I can categorically say, when this started, the one scenario that I would never have predicted was the US coming down on the side of Russia. This literally blows my mind, the cold War enemy, sucked up to, the democratic nation, invaded, now abandoned unless it signs over its mineral wealth. I'm still struggling to come to terms with it, but as been said, we all have to recalibrate how we see the US. Once the guarantee of our security, now a friend of war criminals, at least in the highest circles of power. I wonder whether the defence/security establishment of the US will roll with this new reality or fight back.

I think we all knew as soon as Trump went for a second term, he’d buddy up to Putin.

 

[Flounce]

---

24 Hours

Takes advantage of the invasion, by trying on some obscene asset stripping minerals deal in perpetuity.

100 days (7 days to go, so not looking good)

Blames one of the participants, in this case the victim and not the aggressor. WTF?

Walks off the pitch before the pundits can apportion blame?

It's all a bit shit isn't it?

---

Taking his ball with him but being too dense and self obsessed to realise it’s not the ball in use

 

[Since1982]

Yep agreed, he looks like he'll be a great ally for Ukraine, and just what Europe needs

And how shameful that the UK sits outside the EU at such a critical time for the region as this. Trying to cozy up to Trump, hanging onto election promises about the EU that now look as though they were written in a different age - Starmer is misjudging the mood.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

And how shameful that the UK sits outside the EU at such a critical time for the region as this. Trying to cozy up to Trump, hanging onto election promises about the EU that now look as though they were written in a different age - Starmer is misjudging the mood.

Starmer is becoming a huge problem for his party.

 

[maffew]

And how shameful that the UK sits outside the EU at such a critical time for the region as this. Trying to cozy up to Trump, hanging onto election promises about the EU that now look as though they were written in a different age - Starmer is misjudging the mood.

I'm not sure I agree fully on that. Being in the EU is not really what matters/not really that important without an EU army. Our support for Ukraine has been up there with the best, and so has non EU countries like Canada, with billions in support, and welcoming refugees. Looks like Japan stepping up to the plate as well, knowing that China/Russia is a risk to them.
Plus Starmers leading the coalition of the willing and really leading this, whilst doing an unenviable task of trying to deal diplomatically with the shit show that is US policy and keep Trump on UK side just a little more than the rest of the EU.

Think he's doing a pretty decent job on it personally, and arguably not being in the EU dealing with current affairs including possible trade deals are actually a positive thing at the moment.

 

[Flounce]

Starmer is becoming a huge problem for his party.

Initially I had no problem with Starmer playing it low key but Trump is coming across as so deranged with his solutions to the war that Starmer should just accept that keeping his head below the parapet is now looking weak subservient leadership from him. IMO

Needs to call him out on cozying up to Putin whilst continuing to treat Zelensky with contempt.

Not that it will make any difference but we should be showing more solidarity with Europe, not bystanding.

 

[Ooh it’s a corner]

Merz looks like exactly the right man at the right time for Europe and Ukraine.

Cannot wait for him to assume the chancellorship in the coming days.

Misread that and thought you were suggesting Paul Merson was the right man!

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Initially I had no problem with Starmer playing it low key but Trump is coming across as so deranged with his solutions to the war that Starmer should just accept that keeping his head below the parapet is now looking weak subservient leadership from him. IMO

Needs to call him out on cozying up to Putin whilst continuing to treat Zelensky with contempt.

Yes I agree. He needs to Trump exactly what he is. Stand up to the wanker

 

[peterward]

Interesting and alarming perspectives in this small X thread by Phillips. Not read substack article more fully yet.

This bit is really troubling

"Btw, Putin saying right after this that he is now willing to freeze the war along the present front line and negotiate is almost certainly coordinated action with Trump to try and force this terrible deal down Ukraine’s and Europe’s throats"

 

[peterward]

Misread that and thought you were suggesting Paul Merson was the right man!

I'd take him over Trump.

 

[Flounce]

I'd take him over Trump.

How about Vance if Trump is assasinated?

 

[Since1982]

I'm not sure I agree fully on that. Being in the EU is not really what matters/not really that important without an EU army. Our support for Ukraine has been up there with the best, and so has non EU countries like Canada, with billions in support, and welcoming refugees. Looks like Japan stepping up to the plate as well, knowing that China/Russia is a risk to them.
Plus Starmers leading the coalition of the willing and really leading this, whilst doing an unenviable task of trying to deal diplomatically with the shit show that is US policy and keep Trump on UK side just a little more than the rest of the EU.

Think he's doing a pretty decent job on it personally, and arguably not being in the EU dealing with current affairs including possible trade deals are actually a positive thing at the moment.

Points well made and I’d have described my view in that way until very recently. But it feels to me like a time to choose sides, Trump shows no sign of responding positively to the best efforts of the PM and his team.

 

[raymondo]

I've little doubt that Trump is setting this up so there's no deal that can be accepted.

He'll walk away from it blaming both parties but publicly lamenting Zelensky for saying it how it is, and say eff all to Russia publicly, and have a pally call with Putin saying what a great portrait it is and send him some nice vodka.
What will follow is no more military support for Ukraine, sanctions lifted on Russia, and a trade deal with no tariffs to Russia hoping no one remembers they were excluded from his flip chart as sanctions were already covering that and there is currently effectively little to no trade.
Oh and if the deal in Ukraines minerals gets through in the mean time, he'll give Putin a slice of the pie, and probably support their military protecting the mines on land which isn't theres

Or something.

Holding out some hope that the minerals deal doesn't happen, because it will bite zelensky in the arse.

I agree with you 100,%.
I can't believe Ukraine would sign a minerals deal with the US - they ARE on Russia's side. Just don't do it

 

[raymondo]

How about Vance if Trump is assasinated?

All bad, the whole crew needs to go.

 

[A1X]

“Why won’t you Ukrainians just give up so I can have my Nobel peace prize like Obama?”

 

[Bodian]

It's the way he / the US seem to be saying 'we've put a deal together, and one side (Russia) is happy to accept it - whilst the difficult Zelensky/Ukrainians aren't'. And therefore blaming Ukraine for it all 'going wrong'.

But the deal is so heavily weighted towards Russia's demands and future expansion plans - that it is clear that Ukraine could never accept it.

It's a bit like saying 'We've agreed that Person A will give Person B £500 for nothing in return" and then being surprised/annoyed that Person A doesn't immediately fall into line and do it.

 

[Brovion]

This CANNOT be said enough: Donald Trump is a complete and total ****.

 

[SouthSaxon]

Points well made and I’d have described my view in that way until very recently. But it feels to me like a time to choose sides, Trump shows no sign of responding positively to the best efforts of the PM and his team.

I was mildly encouraged by Reeves saying yesterday that they wouldn’t rush a trade deal with the US (link here).

We’re in a much weaker position than Europe, partly due to Brexit and partly due to our stronger integration with US defence, so I get why they’re being careful in what they say.

They must, surely, see that Trump can’t be relied on in anything and that the future lies with Europe. If they don’t, they’re even bigger fools than the Tory headbangers.

 

[Eric the meek]

We’re in a much weaker position than Europe, partly due to Brexit and partly due to our stronger integration with US defence, so I get why they’re being careful in what they say.

Agreed. I'm not a big fan of telling Trump to F off, even though that is of course the natural response. We should keep him onside publicly, while quietly pursing what is in the best interests of the UK.

We are indeed in a much weaker position than Europe, as we no longer have a seat at the EU table. Amongst other things, this means we have no input regarding the allocation of the EU funding of 800 billion Euros for defence infrastructure and manufacturing over the next five years. We are still a member of Nato of course.

While I am a remainer and like nothing more than bashing the Brexiteers, no-one, remainer or Brexiteer, could have foreseen the extraordinary changing of sides by Trump.
So I don't attach any blame to the Brexiteers for this. It was never on anyone's radar.

Nevertheless, it is an unfortunate byproduct of Brexit that Britain is in an uncomfortable and vulnerable position, without the US umbrella, and on the outside of the EU, looking in. In the coming years, we may find ourselves rather more reliant on the kindness of strangers (Europeans) than we thought.