[News] A woman is a woman.

[dejavuatbtn]

It shouldn’t be a big problem to change all sit down loos to gender neutral. the biggest issue will be male and female changing rooms for sports clubs. It’s going to be so costly to provide another set(s) of facilities.

 

[Mustafa II]

The gender identity problem is never going to go away.

The reason for that is that both sides of the arguments have very valid points which conflict with each other.

I personally think our highest priority should be protecting women, so I think the supreme court has got this spot on.

 

[Freddo]

Female-only chess tournaments were introduced a while ago mainly to encourage more women to play what was a very male-dominated sport.

It’s rather a leftfield example to draw on to prove biological males should be allowed to compete in other female sports, particularly physically competitive sports.

I'm not looking to prove that transwomen should be allowed to compete in other female sports, but neither is it 'leftfield' as it's been in the news within the last 18 months: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/67127168

All I'm saying is that if you support that ban then yes you are prejudiced.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Yes, that has seemed like a pretty common sense solution for a years, and one that only loony culture warriors to get too worked up about

Government to lay new law to halt the march of gender-neutral toilets in buildings

New requirements will be brought forward for single sex toilet facilities in new non-domestic buildings to alleviate safety, privacy and dignity concerns.

www.gov.uk

Not.... not..... the conservatives?

I had almost forgotten all about them, till today.
To paraphrase Withnail speaking to Monty, terrible lot of ****s, weren't they?

I was reminded of them when I spotted a tiny weaselly woman with a mix of disdain and irritation on her face in the queue behind me in Macknade, Faversham, this afternoon. Yes, none other than the MP for Faversham and mid Kent herself.

 

[hart's shirt]

You could knock over the pieces with your BOOBS

...and end up bashing the bishop.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Sod that! It'd be much better legislation if local authorities, larger shops, petrol stations, etc. were just compelled to provide toilets, any bloody toilets, and plenty of them! After nearly all public loos have been closed, there are far more people out and about needing a loo - any loo - than trans-gender people looking for specific loos just for them!

Excellent point, well made.

And trains. Toilets out of order....

I spent 15 minutes wandering about on an express from Manchester or Leeds to London a few years ago (I forget the details) looking for a toilet.
I eventually had to relieve myself in a corridor.
It was that or in my trousers.

 

[The Clamp]

No. The Gents and Ladies appellations now apply to biological sex, not gender. Transgender (TG) male-to-female and female-to-male people will now have to use the toilet of their biological sex, when there are no gender neutral toilets available.

Yes, someone (let's say a woman) who fully transitioned decades ago and looks exactly like what they always wanted to be (a bloke) will now have the right to use the toilet of their birth (in this case the Ladies). So, yes, a fully transitioned female to male TG person, with male pattern baldness and a full beard and hairy chest will now be able to use the Ladies. In fact they will be required by law to use the Ladies when only Ladies and Gents are available.

That is, I suspect, one of the unintentional consequences of the legislation that will need to be rectified. In the end, the legal nuance loophole, triggered by the Scottish parliament and proliferated by 'certain sorts', that certain women seemed to think would allow TG former-male rapists to prowl the Ladies, a loophole that has now been 'fixed', could come back to haunt them. The issue is nuanced after all. Who knew?

The solution will be a proliferation of gender neutral toilets. I can see it becoming law soon that public buildings and places of employment MUST offer gender neutral facilities. That's fine by me.

I highly doubt anyone is going to be checking.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Perhaps we should all remember this.

 

[DJ NOBO]

I'm not looking to prove that transwomen should be allowed to compete in other female sports, but neither is it 'leftfield' as it's been in the news within the last 18 months: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/67127168

All I'm saying is that if you support that ban then yes you are prejudiced.

It’s leftfield in the sense that chess is not respresentative of the concerns many people have about biological men competing in women’s sports .

Where chess is concerned it’s seems to be not so much a trans issue as whether there needs to be separate male and female competitions at all. There maybe good reasons why not but it looks like a bit of a tangle

 

[Titanic]

 

[worthingweird]

Okay but what part of biological sex?

Their chromosomes? What gametes they produce? What genitalia they are born with? What their brain says they are?

Each of these are biological in nature, but will result in different people being classified as women.

It's not a simple topic despite what some people will say.

With or without...simple.

 

[Freddo]

It’s leftfield in the sense that chess is not respresentative of the concerns many people have about biological men competing in women’s sports .

Where chess is concerned it’s seems to be not so much a trans issue as whether there needs to be separate male and female competitions at all. There maybe good reasons why not but it looks like a bit of a tangle

But that's the point...people are talking about 'blanket bans' which are exclusionary and don't take into account the nuance of sports like chess, nor the nuance of transwomen transitioning at different stages of their lives.

 

[birthofanorange]

Excellent point, well made.

And trains. Toilets out of order....

I spent 15 minutes wandering about on an express from Manchester or Leeds to London a few years ago (I forget the details) looking for a toilet.
I eventually had to relieve myself in a corridor.
It was that or in my trousers.

I trust you followed the old instructions and waited until the train left the station?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I trust you followed the old instructions and waited until the train left the station?

It was doing about 120 MPH at the time.
I had quite a job steadying myself, to spare the suit and shoes.
Not straightforward, as I probably had a liter of wine in me from the early evening work-related shindig.

Bloody railways.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Is science also pompous for not seeing sex as binary?

By birth, then, a baby has five layers of sex. But as with chromosomal sex, each subsequent layer does not always become strictly binary. Furthermore, the layers can conflict with one another, with one being binary and another not: An XX baby can be born with a penis, an XY person may have a vagina, and so on. These kinds of inconsistencies throw a monkey wrench into any plan to assign sex as male or female, categorically and in perpetuity, just by looking at a newborn’s private parts.

https://joelvelasco.net/teaching/3334/fausto-Why_sex_Is_Not_Binary.pdf

I’m pretty sure you’ve totally missed my point.

 

[DJ NOBO]

But that's the point...people are talking about 'blanket bans' which are exclusionary and don't take into account the nuance of sports like chess, nor the nuance of transwomen transitioning at different stages of their lives.

The timing of transitioning is a nuance too far for me.
But there is a case for making chess comps open to any person

 

[DJ NOBO]

Okay but what part of biological sex?

Their chromosomes? What gametes they produce? What genitalia they are born with? What their brain says they are?

Each of these are biological in nature, but will result in different people being classified as women.

It's not a simple topic despite what some people will say.

This is just obfuscating to steer away from what is a simple concept. Because you don’t like that simple concept.
It is literally the tactics flat earthers use,

 

[WATFORD zero]

This is just obfuscating to steer away from what is a simple concept. Because you don’t like that simple concept.
It is literally the tactics flat earthers use,

Most concepts are simple.

It's when you try to implement a simple concept in complicated reality that issues tend to occur

 

[DJ NOBO]

Most concepts are simple.

It's when you try to implement a simple concept in complicated reality that issues tend to occur

Can’t argue with that !
And I would very much agree with Mustafa’s post above. There are strong arguments on both sides. It‘s been good to read a range of views On this thread.

 

[Easy 10]

Not.... not..... the conservatives?

I had almost forgotten all about them, till today.
To paraphrase Withnail speaking to Monty, terrible lot of ****s, weren't they?

I was reminded of them when I spotted a tiny weaselly woman with a mix of disdain and irritation on her face in the queue behind me in Macknade, Faversham, this afternoon. Yes, none other than the MP for Faversham and mid Kent herself.

View attachment 200148

The immortal Malcolm Tucker once described a minister as being "So dense, light bends around him"

Helen Whately fits that description perfectly.