[News] A woman is a woman.

[BLOCK F]

I did say 'a decent sonographer'.

I remember when Junior Orange was born being sent home to get more baby clothes as none of the new born stuff fitted! So clothing new borns can be an issue irrespective of the colour of the cloth!

Could a Curious Orange possibly identify as an Apple, I wonder?

 

[The Clamp]

I’m

My comments on this topic are nuanced and there are numerous caveats.
We need to upscale gender neutral provision, then gender ceases to be an issue.
We can't simply exclude trans women from single sex spaces and expect them to muck in with the blokes.
This means more gender neutral provision for changing rooms in swimming pools, gyms, football stadia.....
I can imagine this becoming a legal requirement in public spaces.
And in order to not create gender neutral ghettos I would actively encourage use of gender neutral facilities by all.
Then the female extremes of left and right, who fear being raped by a trans woman, can enjoy the women only spaces,
without making trans women feel like outcasts.

People who transition are defined in their daily life by their gender rather than biological sex.
If we ceased to label people according to gender then all those people, some of whom have lived for decades as women,
in many cases without friends and colleagues being aware of the biological sex,
would suddenly have define themselves as males (and use the gents).
And so on. That would be grotesque.

Why are people so fixated with the toilet issue?

I like your posts a lot. But this much focus on the toilets?

It’s falling into the trap somewhat. If you’ll excuse the pun.

 

[The Clamp]

Problem solved.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/disabled-toilets-uk-Pack-durable-silver/dp/B0BPSNTCSS/ref=mp_s_a_1_1_sspa?crid=3NWQ155R9XEUE&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.nwV1nVpWBETDyo1loWjLe_ZMW4mmMFueARctLElyGsJ_I67fZxrVcyEeiTF_Sv9Gj4tYoQkvHyDxDEQ2BNFed8TfLxWJzKyTV4J5mMfTfim9sSCnj_rxkhf6o6LDujFtDCQxBpJ4TcDHk2Rm0KmGWCfkDn05j3gOh8yI66N1mXa72rEOzZbCCxu7f6zO68inzSnCC-eY21LO5RLNte9aiQ.315syiI4-feH7dYcQjJMFm7WQaV6mZLV7Zs2NFzVxis&dib_tag=se&keywords=disabled+toilet+key&qid=1745162203&sprefix=disabled+toilet+%2Caps%2C582&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9waG9uZV9zZWFyY2hfYXRm&psc=1

From your coke heads to your trans and your genuine disabled, to the average chap in search of a nicer experience. Keys to the kingdoms.

Excuse the massive link. They are disabled toilet keys. Universal. One fits all. Widely available.

 

[BLOCK F]

I’m

Why are people so fixated with the toilet issue?

I like your posts a lot. But this much focus on the toilets?

It’s falling into the trap somewhat. If you’ll excuse the pun.

It’s enough to send one round the S-bend!

 

[pocketseagull]

Why are people so fixated with the toilet issue?

Agreed, it should be a non issue but it's one of the battlegrounds that anti trans activists are obsessed with.

 

[The Clamp]

I’m more concerned with lack of public toilets in general.

Closed down through cost-cutting and ASB from smackies.

And when you do find one it looks like it’s been buried in the earth for a millennia.

 

[highflyer]

It’s such a small problem, on both sides....

The world has bigger problems right now and everyone needs to get over themselves.

Broadly I agree with you, although if you are a trans person then I can understand that the fight over trans rights will seem quite important, given how central it is to you, who you are, how you live etc. For everyone else though...a few small adjustments, a bit of tolerance, understanding and some compromise from both sides and we can all get on with our lives.

The question we should ALL be asking is why such a minor problems is being presented to us as such a major one...and taking up so much space that could otherwise be used to talk about inequality, climate change, rise of facism etc.

I wonder...

 

[The Clamp]

Broadly I agree with you, although if you are a trans person then I can understand that the fight over trans rights will seem quite important, given how central it is to you, who you are, how you live etc. For everyone else though...a few small adjustments, a bit of tolerance, understanding and some compromise from both sides and we can all get on with our lives.

The question we should ALL be asking is why such a minor problems is being presented to us as such a major one...and taking up so much space that could otherwise be used to talk about inequality, climate change, rise of facism etc.

I wonder...

 

[fly high]

Agreed, it should be a non issue but it's one of the battlegrounds that anti trans activists are obsessed with.

I think it's unfair to label these women as anti trans, surly it's more a case of them being pro women which is not the same but the trans lobby like to paint them that way. There are times when it is important fro women to have women only spaces & yes there is far too much talk about toilets.

 

[birthofanorange]

I think it's unfair to label these women as anti trans, surly it's more a case of them being pro women which is not the same but the trans lobby like to paint them that way. There are times when it is important fro women to have women only spaces & yes there is far too much talk about toilets.

You seem Adamant about that.

 

[pocketseagull]

Personally I'm comfortable with labelling people like JK Rowling and Graham Lineham as being anti-trans. They certainly fuel an anti-trans agenda. We've gone from a trans contestant winning Big Brother to wanting legislation to make things more difficult for a minority. So many of the arguments that are made in the name of safety echo the language that was used to discriminate against gay people.

 

[fly high]

Personally I'm comfortable with labelling people like JK Rowling and Graham Lineham as being anti-trans. They certainly fuel an anti-trans agenda. We've gone from a trans contestant winning Big Brother to wanting legislation to make things more difficult for a minority. So many of the arguments that are made in the name of safety echo the language that was used to discriminate against gay people.

So do you think there is never a situation where a woman should be in a women only space?

 

[pocketseagull]

I think that someone who has transitioned should be considered the gender they've transitioned to.

I also think that people may have concerns who perhaps aren't raving bigots but have certainly been influenced by those who are.

As an aside the pro-trans rally in Brighton yesterday had support in excess of 1,000 people, the counter protest consisted of one.

 

[The Clamp]

My personal opinion is that trans women should not be in women only spaces.

I have yet to see a truly convincing argument to the contrary.

 

[fly high]

I think that someone who has transitioned should be considered the gender they've transitioned to.

I also think that people may have concerns who perhaps aren't raving bigots but have certainly been influenced by those who are.

As an aside the pro-trans rally in Brighton yesterday had support in excess of 1,000 people, the counter protest consisted of one.

So they should be able to live in women's refuge. They should be able to attend women only rape groups sessions.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I’m

Why are people so fixated with the toilet issue?

I like your posts a lot. But this much focus on the toilets?

It’s falling into the trap somewhat. If you’ll excuse the pun.

I have invoked the toilet as an experimental scenario for testing out ideas.
Much as I do in real life.

In seriousness, the coherent aspect of the 'debate' is around safe spaces (for women).
Toilets, changing rooms, gentlewomen's private clubs, that sort of malarkey.

Some women are very exercised about trans women 'invading' their safe spaces.
Some women see no distinction between someone who has lived quietly as an unequivocal anatomical woman for 50 years,
and a criminal in a dress who wants to perve over them.
Whereas others think that anyone with or without a penis can call themselves a woman and have equal rights with all women.

And then there is the issue of women's sport, and the unfair advantage of having enjoyed the benefit of testosterone during puberty.

For some people the issue is about safety,
for others it is about identity,
for others it is about equality.

I am learning a lot a as consequence of the ruling, and indeed this thread.
For example, apparently (and I didn't know this) JK Rowling was gaslighted by militant trans supporters,
when all she did was state the obvious that a trans woman is not a biological woman (in the context of the 'safe space for women' discussion).
And I had rather foolishly accepted the narrative wafting about that she is transphobic.
Mrs T just told me it is not what she said 'but the way she said it' and that 'many of the Potter actors have distanced themselves from her'.
I looked this up and the Guardian reported that Potter actors accused her of claiming that being trans is 'not valid'.
But she hasn't said that.

Hmm....this seems to be a bit like the Brexit debate where we were urged to take back control (of things we already controlled),
to 'stop the boats' (full of people who are not EU citizens),
and 'save £350 million a week for the NHS'.
and it was pointed out this is a load of old bollocks, we got the response:
'What about that rapist? He's a Muslim! Only Nigel Farage has the answers!'.

I suspect the trans 'debate' has failed to trigger a Brexit style volume clamour of ranting nonsensical claptrap only because people can't quite get their heads around which side they are supposed to be on.

 

[pocketseagull]

A trans women in a refuge would have also been abused. They could have also been raped.

 

[DJ NOBO]

Personally I'm comfortable with labelling people like JK Rowling and Graham Lineham as being anti-trans. They certainly fuel an anti-trans agenda. We've gone from a trans contestant winning Big Brother to wanting legislation to make things more difficult for a minority. So many of the arguments that are made in the name of safety echo the language that was used to discriminate against gay people.

What is your definition of anti trans?
Do you mean people who hate trans people?
If so, you may be comfortable with labelling JK Rowling anti trans, but you wouldn’t be accurate going by her posts.
Prove me wrong.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

So they should be able to live in women's refuge. They should be able to attend women only rape groups sessions.

No. @pocketseagull wrote gender, not biological sex.

First rule of this thread - be sure to not confuse gender with biological sex.

The remaining issue is how to make changes that allow trans women to be treated fairly and equally in society.
(To use the toilet analogy again, someone who is a woman by gender needs somewhere safe to go to the toilet - and it is definitely not the gents.).

 

[Curious Orange]

My personal opinion is that trans women should not be in women only spaces.

I have yet to see a truly convincing argument to the contrary.

I'm still not entirely certain what rights it is that the trans activists think they haven't got in all honesty.

Equality Act 2010

An Act to make provision to require Ministers of the Crown and others when making strategic decisions about the exercise of their functions to have regard to the desirability of reducing socio-economic inequalities; to reform and harmonise equality law and restate the greater part of the...

www.legislation.gov.uk