[Politics] Small boats, smashing the criminal gangs and the UK job market

[Barryseagulls]

I see the British value of helping people in need is shining bright on this thread.

If they are in true need I support it but only if they share our British values. The problem is some of these people coming from countries like Syria etc may not. Hostility towards gay people, treating women like 2nd class citizens support for sharia law & potentially even prescribed terrorist groups etc

Background checks are needed. The people are not all nice, there will be some bad apples.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Has the government really 'returned' 24,000 people?​

Only 6,339 were enforced returns of people with no legal right to remain in the UK.

6,339 enforced returns of people with no legal right to remain in the UK
3,594 were of foreign national offenders (FNOs)
1,848 early removal scheme (ERS) returns
6,781 were asylum related returns

Because you'd want people to know all the available figures, I'm sure

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...from-the-uk-from-5-july-2024-to-22-march-2025

 

[Peteinblack]

If they are in true need I support it but only if they share our British values. The problem is some of these people coming from countries like Syria etc may not. Hostility towards gay people, treating women like 2nd class citizens support for sharia law & potentially even prescribed terrorist groups etc

Background checks are needed. The people are not all nice, there will be some bad apples.

But many Brits on the political Right - often those who shout loudest about their patriotism - also hold these views. I hardly think people like Nigel Farage and Lee Anderson are staunch defenders (or promoters) of gay people or women's equality; they denounce these as 'Woke/Leftie nonsense'!

Depends how you interpret 'British values' - moderation, tolerance, civility, (social) equality, respect for others, honesty, empathy for the less fortunate, believing that people are innocent until proven guilty in a fair trial, etc? Because, again, I don't think those 'British values' are widely or strongly held by the people who denounce immigrants and asylum seekers for not embracing 'our way of life'

 

[BadFish]

If they are in true need I support it but only if they share our British values. The problem is some of these people coming from countries like Syria etc may not. Hostility towards gay people, treating women like 2nd class citizens support for sharia law & potentially even prescribed terrorist groups etc

Background checks are needed. The people are not all nice, there will be some bad apples.

So the process that the government use to work out who is and isn't a genuine refugee is not fit for purpose?

What's wrong with it?

 

[Chicken Run]

If they are in true need I support it but only if they share our British values. The problem is some of these people coming from countries like Syria etc may not. Hostility towards gay people, treating women like 2nd class citizens support for sharia law & potentially even prescribed terrorist groups etc

Background checks are needed. The people are not all nice, there will be some bad apples.

Remember many of these non English speaking males that arrive by boat without documentation will give great service to the NHS one day… or even SIA accredited Security Guards at migrant hotels…

 

[BBassic]

But many Brits on the political Right - often those who shout loudest about their patriotism - also hold these views. I hardly think people like Nigel Farage and Lee Anderson are staunch defenders (or promoters) of gay people or women's equality!

I love the "British values" trope that gets wheeled out, as if the meaning of that phrase doesn't vary from person to person.

I, a Brit, value tolerance, equity, inclusion and a whole host of other things that will get me labelled as a soft southern snowflake. For me those are "British values" but I know for a fact that other Brits don't hold them.

It's such a bollocks phrase used to prop up this idea that we're somehow better than those other people.

 

[GT49er]

I’m not so sure, many of these Male non English speaking folk without papers will go on to become Doctors & Healthcare professionals….

Take out the comma and I'd agree with you!

 

[Ike and Tina Burner]

But many Brits on the political Right - often those who shout loudest about their patriotism - also hold these views.

I love the "British values" trope that gets wheeled out, as if the meaning of that phrase doesn't vary from person to person.

What a load of absolute shit. Genuinely quite disgraceful. Are you both completely ignorant of what their countries of origin are like or are you being deliberately thick to score points? Do you know what some of these people believe?
Nobody on the UK right wants to throw gay men from rooftops or essentially own the women they're married to. They don't want adulterers stoned or put in prison. I highly doubt any believe that rape is a social construct that doesn't really exist (an actual conversation I've had with a muslim bloke from Bangladesh). Reminder that something like 50% of UK Muslims believe that homosexuality should be illegal. If you want to continue to welcome them into the UK we have to at least screen the most extreme out.

 

[BBassic]

What a load of absolute shit. Genuinely quite disgraceful. Are you both completely ignorant of what their countries of origin are like or are you being deliberately thick to score points? Do you know what some of these people believe?
Nobody on the UK right wants to throw gay men from rooftops or essentially own the women they're married to. They don't want adulterers stoned or put in prison. I highly doubt any believe that rape is a social construct that doesn't really exist (an actual conversation I've had with a muslim bloke from Bangladesh). Reminder that something like 50% of UK Muslims believe that homosexuality should be illegal. If you want to continue to welcome them into the UK we have to at least screen the most extreme out.

You call us thick yet we didn't resort to name calling.

On to ignore.

 

[Ike and Tina Burner]

You call us thick yet we didn't resort to name calling.

On to ignore.

Your entire post was a name calling of the UK right. We both know that.
There's no real rebuttal to my points which is why you ignore them. The same reason the left have ignored them for two decades. Foolishness.

 

[SouthSaxon]

What a load of absolute shit. Genuinely quite disgraceful. Are you both completely ignorant of what their countries of origin are like or are you being deliberately thick to score points? Do you know what some of these people believe?
Nobody on the UK right wants to throw gay men from rooftops or essentially own the women they're married to. They don't want adulterers stoned or put in prison. I highly doubt any believe that rape is a social construct that doesn't really exist (an actual conversation I've had with a muslim bloke from Bangladesh). Reminder that something like 50% of UK Muslims believe that homosexuality should be illegal. If you want to continue to welcome them into the UK we have to at least screen the most extreme out.

Yes, but it’s not illegal is it?! This is why we have laws, so that people with unorthodox or extreme beliefs can’t just do as they wish without consequence.

And no, the system is not perfect, far from it. But it applies equally to an immigrant or a born-and-bred UK citizen.

Which is why the “British values” trope is an irrelevant straw man, used by some to mask their agenda and/or their racism.

If we want equality to be a British value, we should also be screening out our own citizens according to what they believe. Where would you like to send them?

 

[Ike and Tina Burner]

Yes, but it’s not illegal is it?! This is why we have laws, so that people with unorthodox or extreme beliefs can’t just do as they wish without consequence.

You understand how democracy works though, right? If people with these views vote in large numbers things can change. Which is why we shouldn't allow people with these views into the country.

Which is why the “British values” trope is an irrelevant straw man, used by some to mask their agenda and/or their racism

No it isn't. People who treat women like cattle and want homosexuality outlawed don't hold British values and shouldn't be allowed to live here.

If we want equality to be a British value, we should also be screening out our own citizens according to what they believe. Where would you like to send them?

This is just juvenile. You're entitled to the country your born in even if you don't hold it's values. If someone is born here with shit views we have to live with them. We shouldn't be living with anyone with shit views that we don't have to. Simple

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

You understand how democracy works though, right? If people with these views vote in large numbers things can change. Which is why we shouldn't allow people with these views into the country.

No it isn't. People who treat women like cattle and want homosexuality outlawed don't hold British values and shouldn't be allowed to live here.

This is just juvenile. You're entitled to the country your born in even if you don't hold it's values. If someone is born here with shit views we have to live with them. We shouldn't be living with anyone with shit views that we don't have to. Simple

You seem to be very sure that mysogeny and homophobia are commonplace in this constituency of people.

You see, im not convinced this isn't the case, as I've not spoken to anyone who has come on a small boat about their views on gay people and women's rights.

I just wonder how you seem so sure this is the case?

Don't you think it's possible that the great majority of people coming in don't actually hold strong views like this? They're just young people trying to make money and find a better life?

 

[Ike and Tina Burner]

You seem to be very sure that mysogeny and homophobia are commonplace in this constituency of people.

I am. If you don't then you're denying reality.

You see, im not convinced this isn't the case, as I've not spoken to anyone who has come on a small boat about their views on gay people and women's rights.

That doesn't surprise me. Most on the left have no idea what the average Muslim male actually believes.

I just wonder how you seem so sure this is the case?

Many reasons but every country in the Middle East still being essentially identical in their laws and attitudes despite decades of exposure to the West is a good starting point.

Don't you think it's possible that the great majority of people coming in don't actually hold strong views like this?

My God. They are not strong views back home. They are the societal norms. It's scary that people don't understand that

They're just young people trying to make money and find a better life?

They probably are. But they can still hold views that bar them from this country.

 

[Jackthelad]

They're just young people trying to make money and find a better life?

But why not do it legally? Instead of breaking the rules.

My wife had to jump through hoops to get a passport. I know a guy from Zimbabwe who was dirt poor and was oppressed in his own nation but did not choose the illegal option of a boat. The "They're just" is important, it's breaking the law! and we don't have the system to deal with it.
If people want open borders then lets have that debate, and if those people win then we should have a vote on it. But the current system is not working for anyone.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

But why not do it legally? Instead of breaking the rules.

My wife had to jump through hoops to get a passport. I know a guy from Zimbabwe who was dirt poor and was oppressed in his own nation but did not choose the illegal option of a boat. The "They're just" is important, it's breaking the law! and we don't have the system to deal with it.
If people want open borders then lets have that debate, and if those people win then we should have a vote on it. But the current system is not working for anyone.

Not saying it's right or wrong.

I'm just not necessarily convinced that the people coming are intrinsically harmful to society

 

[SouthSaxon]

You understand how democracy works though, right? If people with these views vote in large numbers things can change. Which is why we shouldn't allow people with these views into the country.

No it isn't. People who treat women like cattle and want homosexuality outlawed don't hold British values and shouldn't be allowed to live here.

This is just juvenile. You're entitled to the country your born in even if you don't hold it's values. If someone is born here with shit views we have to live with them. We shouldn't be living with anyone with shit views that we don't have to. Simple

I'm responding in simplistic terms because your logic is highly simplistic and demonstrates that you don't know what you're talking about.

What you're advocating for contravenes the fundamental essence of human rights, starting with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, to our own domestic law, the Human Rights Act of 1998. This gives people freedom of thought, but not freedom of deed. Then we have democracy to test whether these ideas have broad concensus or not, and a legal system that defines what is acceptable or not.

Human rights are universal, they apply to everyone. This means that you are unwittingly advocating for curtailment of your own rights and those of every other British person, and for handing that power over to the state. You might not think this is the case, but that's the reality of law - it's why members of the last Conservative government were talking overtly about withdrawing from the European Convention on Human Rights and replacing the Human Rights Act.

It's the same stupidity that was prevalent with Brexit - people didn't want Europeans to have freedom of movement to come here, so they happily overlooked that this also meant having that right taken away from every UK citizen. With human rights, it's even more dangerous. Take a quick look across the pond, at Trump wanting to disappear "homegrown" US citizens to El Salvador death camps, to see where this thinking can lead.

Personally, I think the risk of a few extremists wanting to introduce stoning for adulterers into the UK's legal and judicial apparatus is far less than that of giving the state carte blanche to take punitive action against anyone not fitting a completely undefined label of "British values". Thanks to international and domestic human rights law, I have the freedom to think that and, further, the freedom to think that anyone who believes the opposite is an uninformed moron, regardless of whether that's true.

 

[e77]

I am an IT Contractor and every time I start a new contract I invariably need to prove my right to work by showing them my passport. I have worked with non British Citizens who presumably have to show the paperwork demonstrating their right to work in the country. I don't think there is a problem with the rules, there is a problem with getting them enforced with some businesses who have obviously decided it is worth the risk saving money by employing people with no right to work here cheaply.

However illegal immigration is a sideshow compared to the governments handling of legal immigration in the last couple of decades. Until last year they could import skilled labour and only pay them 80% of the going rate. Boris Johnson quietly dropped the requirement for jobs having to be advertised to the local population before a company could get a visa for a foreign worker.

Legal immigration isn't a liberal conspiracy. While some sectors probably do need it, and we do need managed migration in this country, some businesses just got in the ear of government and told them there was a skilled shortage when in fact there was a shortage of people willing to do it cheaply. They should have been told to pay more or start training the staff they had.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I am. If you don't then you're denying reality.

That doesn't surprise me. Most on the left have no idea what the average Muslim male actually believes.

Many reasons but every country in the Middle East still being essentially identical in their laws and attitudes despite decades of exposure to the West is a good starting point.

My God. They are not strong views back home. They are the societal norms. It's scary that people don't understand that

They probably are. But they can still hold views that bar them from this country.

It could be that i am a "lefty", that I'm "denying reality" and it could be "scary" that I don't see things your way.

I'll give your comments genuine thought.

Equally, it could be that you're feeble minded enough to have been conned into believing every word that malignant racist actors and Russian bots continually spew into right wing echo chambers, to the extent you'll parrot their hateful bile on sites like this one.

I mean, at least consider the possibility.

 

[Ike and Tina Burner]

I'm responding in simplistic terms because your logic is highly simplistic and demonstrates that you don't know what you're talking about.

What you're advocating for contravenes the fundamental essence of human rights, starting with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, to our own domestic law, the Human Rights Act of 1998. This gives people freedom of thought, but not freedom of deed. Then we have democracy to test whether these ideas have broad concensus or not, and a legal system that defines what is acceptable or not.

Human rights are universal, they apply to everyone. This means that you are unwittingly advocating for curtailment of your own rights and those of every other British person, and for handing that power over to the state. You might not think this is the case, but that's the reality of law - it's why members of the last Conservative government were talking overtly about withdrawing from the European Convention on Human Rights and replacing the Human Rights Act.

It's the same stupidity that was prevalent with Brexit - people didn't want Europeans to have freedom of movement to come here, so they happily overlooked that this also meant having that right taken away from every UK citizen. With human rights, it's even more dangerous. Take a quick look across the pond, at Trump wanting to disappear "homegrown" US citizens to El Salvador death camps, to see where this thinking can lead.

"People who think gay people should be killed should be stopped from entering the UK" warrents that response apparently.

Personally, I think the risk of a few extremists wanting to introduce stoning for adulterers into the UK's legal and judicial apparatus is far less than that of giving the state carte blanche to take punitive action against anyone not fitting a completely undefined label of "British values". .

You're so shortsighted and ignorant it terrifies me. The Muslim Vote, a campaign group which urges Muslim voters to vote on a certain basis, said in a social media clip last month that it is “playing to win” at all future elections’ Sectarianism has no place in Britain nor does anyone who practices it. It’s a cancer that needs to be removed before it metastasises.