[Albion] Bart Verbruggen SINGS a 5-year deal

[J2 DOG]

Bart has become complacent. He has no competition for his position

 

[Weststander]

I agree. And it requires a keeper with a very specific skill set to play that role. Also, you’re not going to be making as many typical saves as a keeper that plays behind a deeper lying defence would.

Incidentally, I actually think Steele’s skill set would better suit this side, which says something as I am not a fan of Steele in the slightest.

My solution is for more defenders/DM with pace hopefully bought in the coming window. Currently too few in the squad, hence even Leicester had a laugh.

 

[albionalex]

I wasn’t commenting on your last paragraph, and quite frankly it’s the club’s model whether we like it or not. Personally, I’d like to see us keep our best players to try and challenge more regularly higher up, but that’s unlikely to happen so what can we do.

As to your first point, he has made mistakes, albeit many of those were earlier in the season. Given this is his first full season as a starting keeper for us, I do think that’s to be expected. I can’t honestly think of a big mistake he’s made in the last 10-15 games (no, I don’t think he’s was at fault for Villa’s opener). I can think of a number of saves he’s made where he’s kept us in games though, including against Leicester when he saved us from further embarrassment.

As to your second paragraph, shot stopping isn’t an equal measurement though. Those teams all sit deeper, stay narrower when defending, don’t leave as many men forward etc. We expose our defence and our keeper terribly in this system, under this manager, and I don’t honestly think there’s a keeper in the league, outside of maybe Allison, who would look particularly good in our team.

Stylistically though, I don’t think he’s the best fit for us. He clearly isn’t that comfortable coming off his line which isn’t ideal considering how high our defence plays, and he definitely needs to work at claiming balls in the air.

Just FYI, I’m not saying I think he’s perfect - I really, really don’t. I just think it’s been a baptism of fire for him and he’s had next to no protection this season because of how we’re set up.

Chelsea.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Then look at something like PSXg-GA (Post-Shot Expected Goals minus Goals Allowed - Positive numbers suggest better luck or an above average ability to stop shots - PSxG is expected goals based on how likely the goalkeeper is to save the shot)

He’s absolutely rock bottom of every EPL keeper that’s played this season. More data here : https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/keepersadv/Premier-League-Stats

View attachment 200161

Data’s lovely and all, but there are always anomalies. For example, he was supposed to only concede 1.5 goals against Leicester, apparently, yet I don’t think anyone watching either of their goals thought he should’ve saved them.

Furthermore, against Palace he’s statistically only supposed to concede 0.9 of the two goals apparently - again though, I don’t think anyone watching either of those thinks he’s to blame.

Similarly, Minteh’s first half miss from about 2 yards out with an open goal, the type of miss that almost every match going fan would be disappointed to miss, only had an xG of 0.09…

Data’s great, but sometimes it doesn’t tell the whole story.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Chelsea.

Yeh, fair point. I didn’t go to that game so it doesn’t stick out, but that was a howler.

 

[Weststander]

Yeh, fair point. I didn’t go to that game so it doesn’t stick out, but that was a howler.

The Leicester opening goal not solid keeping?

 

[Terry Butcher Tribute Act]

First goal v Leicester is shocking keeping, goes straight through him.

Munoz goal at Palace may be deflected but has little pace on it, he gets nowhere near it.

Keepers who come to the Amex and have blinders to keep us out save these chances.

 

[macbeth]

I wasn’t commenting on your last paragraph, and quite frankly it’s the club’s model whether we like it or not. Personally, I’d like to see us keep our best players to try and challenge more regularly higher up, but that’s unlikely to happen so what can we do.

As to your first point, he has made mistakes, albeit many of those were earlier in the season. Given this is his first full season as a starting keeper for us, I do think that’s to be expected. I can’t honestly think of a big mistake he’s made in the last 10-15 games (no, I don’t think he’s was at fault for Villa’s opener). I can think of a number of saves he’s made where he’s kept us in games though, including against Leicester when he saved us from further embarrassment.

As to your second paragraph, shot stopping isn’t an equal measurement though. Those teams all sit deeper, stay narrower when defending, don’t leave as many men forward etc. We expose our defence and our keeper terribly in this system, under this manager, and I don’t honestly think there’s a keeper in the league, outside of maybe Allison, who would look particularly good in our team.

Stylistically though, I don’t think he’s the best fit for us. He clearly isn’t that comfortable coming off his line which isn’t ideal considering how high our defence plays, and he definitely needs to work at claiming balls in the air.

Just FYI, I’m not saying I think he’s perfect - I really, really don’t. I just think it’s been a baptism of fire for him and he’s had next to no protection this season because of how we’re set up.

Verbruggen fits into the club’s model for sure, but it’s not necessarily rigid. As Dunk slows down and Milner moves on, after Groß and Lallana leaving, it might be that the club look to bring in more senior pro’s to compensate. I think goalkeeper is an area where we could get maximum value out of that.

He has had a few impressive games, take your point about the saves at Leicester and I think he was great against Bournemouth. But the stats simply do not lie. Mistakes are fine, part of the game, but when he’s right up there ahead of over 18 other keepers, I do think that is worth noting and perhaps more than just inexperience.

I take your point, and said in my
initial reply, that teams create better chances against us and this is because we are so exposed. It really does my head in and I think Bart has suffered from it. That being said, thinking about the actual mistakes made, I cannot put down our system as a catch-all excuse, and in fact there are plenty, such as the FA cup game against Chelsea, where it’s nothing to do with the system and just him being really poor. There may not be many keepers who’d look great on our system, but I’d wager there are a fair few who’d look better than Bart currently.

I’m not saying he won’t be an exceptional goalkeeper in a few years, but there’s no guarantee of that and he’s not exceptional *right now*, like Caicedo and Mac were when they left. It’s not that there’s no point persisting with him, or that I’m particularly itching to move him on. I just think if we got a reasonable offer we should seriously consider it, and we could probably improve on him if we wanted too.

 

[GT49er]

He turned into a surly dick by the end of his time here and he did have the occasional ricket in him but I remember far far more quality saves from him than Bart has managed this season

Yep, this. Surly - but good. Passing like Pirlo should never had been his no. 1 job as a GK. A quirk of de Zerbi, lapped up by many. He's still a better GK than Verbruggen. Thank you, RDZ.

 

[dazzer6666]

Data’s lovely and all, but there are always anomalies. For example, he was supposed to only concede 1.5 goals against Leicester, apparently, yet I don’t think anyone watching either of their goals thought he should’ve saved them.

Furthermore, against Palace he’s statistically only supposed to concede 0.9 of the two goals apparently - again though, I don’t think anyone watching either of those thinks he’s to blame.

Similarly, Minteh’s first half miss from about 2 yards out with an open goal, the type of miss that almost every match going fan would be disappointed to miss, only had an xG of 0.09…

Data’s great, but sometimes it doesn’t tell the whole story.

You can out isolated examples (the Minteh one isn’t the best to choose as it was on his wrong foot, hence the low Xg) but a) they are based on literally thousands of incidents and b) Bart is clear bottom of that particular table…..even giving him the benefit of the doubt on a couple won’t change that. The algo probably wouldn’t be identifying him as a potential purchase now

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Verbruggen fits into the club’s model for sure, but it’s not necessarily rigid. As Dunk slows down and Milner moves on, after Groß and Lallana leaving, it might be that the club look to bring in more senior pro’s to compensate. I think goalkeeper is an area where we could get maximum value out of that.

He has had a few impressive games, take your point about the saves at Leicester and I think he was great against Bournemouth. But the stats simply do not lie. Mistakes are fine, part of the game, but when he’s right up there ahead of over 18 other keepers, I do think that is worth noting and perhaps more than just inexperience.

I take your point, and said in my
initial reply, that teams create better chances against us and this is because we are so exposed. It really does my head in and I think Bart has suffered from it. That being said, thinking about the actual mistakes made, I cannot put down our system as a catch-all excuse, and in fact there are plenty, such as the FA cup game against Chelsea, where it’s nothing to do with the system and just him being really poor. There may not be many keepers who’d look great on our system, but I’d wager there are a fair few who’d look better than Bart currently.

I’m not saying he won’t be an exceptional goalkeeper in a few years, but there’s no guarantee of that and he’s not exceptional *right now*, like Caicedo and Mac were when they left. It’s not that there’s no point persisting with him, or that I’m particularly itching to move him on. I just think if we got a reasonable offer we should seriously consider it, and we could probably improve on him if we wanted too.

I agree with everything you’ve said.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

You can out isolated examples (the Minteh one isn’t the best to choose as it was on his wrong foot, hence the low Xg) but a) they are based on literally thousands of incidents and b) Bart is clear bottom of that particular table…..even giving him the benefit of the doubt on a couple won’t change that. The algo probably wouldn’t be identifying him as a potential purchase now

The data doesn’t take into account the defence in front of you or the style of play that leaves you exposed. That’s my point. I don’t think any keeper outside of Allison or Ederson looks good in this system.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

The Leicester opening goal not solid keeping?

I mean it went through his legs. Most people acknowledge that’s a difficult place to make a save.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

It's funny because last season when RDZ was doing the whole 'hokey-cokey' thing with the keepers, I suggested it might be because Bart wasn't ready for the PL and he was being eased in. I even said at the time that I could imagine the outcry if he was just made the #1 – which a lot of fans were demanding – and then he ended up making mistakes all the time. I also remember pointing out that Bart conceded way more goals from RDZ's Fannying Around At The Back™ shenanigans than Jason, but fans still weren't having it.

Fast forward a year and probably some of those same fans are calling for Bart to go and be replaced by someone – with some fans even suggesting, you guessed it, STEELE!

FWIW, I don't think BV is a bad keeper and certainly think that he's worth sticking with because of the potential, but also because there are other factors at play. Such as the defence in front of him, which hasn't been settled all season and that lack of protection is bound to make his numbers worse, due to the fact that he is faced with more shots to (try and) save.

Also, as I've said before, I don't understand how a player can be touted for a move to a top TOP club, but also not good enough for Brighton. It's either one or the other...

 

[albionalex]

The data doesn’t take into account the defence in front of you or the style of play that leaves you exposed. That’s my point. I don’t think any keeper outside of Allison or Ederson looks good in this system.

But it does take into account the difficulty of the shots faced and if it would be expected to be saved or not.

 

[oldboyroy]

Unfortunately, Bart hasn't fill me with any confidence this season. The odd brilliant save here and there and more noticeably, some good blocks but he doesn't command his area. Haven't seen him save a penalty for us, generally has an error every game and has cost us dearly. Having said that, our defending has been up and down all season without having a settled back 4 for any decent run of games apart from the 6 on the bounce run after Forest. I'm sure he'll improve as he's very young but that survey table is pretty grim looking for him.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

But it does take into account the difficulty of the shots faced and if it would be expected to be saved or not.

In a model that isn’t full proof or perfect, as highlighted by the xG given to Minteh’s chance.

 

[Weststander]

The data doesn’t take into account the defence in front of you or the style of play that leaves you exposed. That’s my point. I don’t think any keeper outside of Allison or Ederson looks good in this system.

Liverpool (especially under Klopp) push up to the half way line too, similar pitch positions to us under FH. Alisson is renowned for preventing goals when faced with an attacker and no defenders to help, as he showed against Bowen etc last week.

 

[albionalex]

In a model that isn’t full proof or perfect, as highlighted by the xG given to Minteh’s chance.

But your eye test is fool proof and perfect?

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Data’s lovely and all, but there are always anomalies. For example, he was supposed to only concede 1.5 goals against Leicester, apparently, yet I don’t think anyone watching either of their goals thought he should’ve saved them.

Furthermore, against Palace he’s statistically only supposed to concede 0.9 of the two goals apparently - again though, I don’t think anyone watching either of those thinks he’s to blame.

Similarly, Minteh’s first half miss from about 2 yards out with an open goal, the type of miss that almost every match going fan would be disappointed to miss, only had an xG of 0.09…

Data’s great, but sometimes it doesn’t tell the whole story.

First goal literally went through him from an angle that favoured him. I just haven’t joined the discussion because, I think the bigger issue is the quality of coaching he’s receiving.

Good goalie, could be great but isn’t there yet.

Agree re data though.