I agree. And it requires a keeper with a very specific skill set to play that role. Also, you’re not going to be making as many typical saves as a keeper that plays behind a deeper lying defence would.
Incidentally, I actually think Steele’s skill set would better suit this side, which says something as I am not a fan of Steele in the slightest.
I wasn’t commenting on your last paragraph, and quite frankly it’s the club’s model whether we like it or not. Personally, I’d like to see us keep our best players to try and challenge more regularly higher up, but that’s unlikely to happen so what can we do.
As to your first point, he has made mistakes, albeit many of those were earlier in the season. Given this is his first full season as a starting keeper for us, I do think that’s to be expected. I can’t honestly think of a big mistake he’s made in the last 10-15 games (no, I don’t think he’s was at fault for Villa’s opener). I can think of a number of saves he’s made where he’s kept us in games though, including against Leicester when he saved us from further embarrassment.
As to your second paragraph, shot stopping isn’t an equal measurement though. Those teams all sit deeper, stay narrower when defending, don’t leave as many men forward etc. We expose our defence and our keeper terribly in this system, under this manager, and I don’t honestly think there’s a keeper in the league, outside of maybe Allison, who would look particularly good in our team.
Stylistically though, I don’t think he’s the best fit for us. He clearly isn’t that comfortable coming off his line which isn’t ideal considering how high our defence plays, and he definitely needs to work at claiming balls in the air.
Just FYI, I’m not saying I think he’s perfect - I really, really don’t. I just think it’s been a baptism of fire for him and he’s had next to no protection this season because of how we’re set up.
Data’s lovely and all, but there are always anomalies. For example, he was supposed to only concede 1.5 goals against Leicester, apparently, yet I don’t think anyone watching either of their goals thought he should’ve saved them.Then look at something like PSXg-GA (Post-Shot Expected Goals minus Goals Allowed - Positive numbers suggest better luck or an above average ability to stop shots - PSxG is expected goals based on how likely the goalkeeper is to save the shot)
He’s absolutely rock bottom of every EPL keeper that’s played this season. More data here : https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/keepersadv/Premier-League-Stats
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Yeh, fair point. I didn’t go to that game so it doesn’t stick out, but that was a howler.Chelsea.
Yeh, fair point. I didn’t go to that game so it doesn’t stick out, but that was a howler.
Verbruggen fits into the club’s model for sure, but it’s not necessarily rigid. As Dunk slows down and Milner moves on, after Groß and Lallana leaving, it might be that the club look to bring in more senior pro’s to compensate. I think goalkeeper is an area where we could get maximum value out of that.I wasn’t commenting on your last paragraph, and quite frankly it’s the club’s model whether we like it or not. Personally, I’d like to see us keep our best players to try and challenge more regularly higher up, but that’s unlikely to happen so what can we do.
As to your first point, he has made mistakes, albeit many of those were earlier in the season. Given this is his first full season as a starting keeper for us, I do think that’s to be expected. I can’t honestly think of a big mistake he’s made in the last 10-15 games (no, I don’t think he’s was at fault for Villa’s opener). I can think of a number of saves he’s made where he’s kept us in games though, including against Leicester when he saved us from further embarrassment.
As to your second paragraph, shot stopping isn’t an equal measurement though. Those teams all sit deeper, stay narrower when defending, don’t leave as many men forward etc. We expose our defence and our keeper terribly in this system, under this manager, and I don’t honestly think there’s a keeper in the league, outside of maybe Allison, who would look particularly good in our team.
Stylistically though, I don’t think he’s the best fit for us. He clearly isn’t that comfortable coming off his line which isn’t ideal considering how high our defence plays, and he definitely needs to work at claiming balls in the air.
Just FYI, I’m not saying I think he’s perfect - I really, really don’t. I just think it’s been a baptism of fire for him and he’s had next to no protection this season because of how we’re set up.
Yep, this. Surly - but good. Passing like Pirlo should never had been his no. 1 job as a GK. A quirk of de Zerbi, lapped up by many. He's still a better GK than Verbruggen. Thank you, RDZ.He turned into a surly dick by the end of his time here and he did have the occasional ricket in him but I remember far far more quality saves from him than Bart has managed this season![]()
You can out isolated examples (the Minteh one isn’t the best to choose as it was on his wrong foot, hence the low Xg) but a) they are based on literally thousands of incidents and b) Bart is clear bottom of that particular table…..even giving him the benefit of the doubt on a couple won’t change that. The algo probably wouldn’t be identifying him as a potential purchase nowData’s lovely and all, but there are always anomalies. For example, he was supposed to only concede 1.5 goals against Leicester, apparently, yet I don’t think anyone watching either of their goals thought he should’ve saved them.
Furthermore, against Palace he’s statistically only supposed to concede 0.9 of the two goals apparently - again though, I don’t think anyone watching either of those thinks he’s to blame.
Similarly, Minteh’s first half miss from about 2 yards out with an open goal, the type of miss that almost every match going fan would be disappointed to miss, only had an xG of 0.09…
Data’s great, but sometimes it doesn’t tell the whole story.
I agree with everything you’ve said.Verbruggen fits into the club’s model for sure, but it’s not necessarily rigid. As Dunk slows down and Milner moves on, after Groß and Lallana leaving, it might be that the club look to bring in more senior pro’s to compensate. I think goalkeeper is an area where we could get maximum value out of that.
He has had a few impressive games, take your point about the saves at Leicester and I think he was great against Bournemouth. But the stats simply do not lie. Mistakes are fine, part of the game, but when he’s right up there ahead of over 18 other keepers, I do think that is worth noting and perhaps more than just inexperience.
I take your point, and said in my
initial reply, that teams create better chances against us and this is because we are so exposed. It really does my head in and I think Bart has suffered from it. That being said, thinking about the actual mistakes made, I cannot put down our system as a catch-all excuse, and in fact there are plenty, such as the FA cup game against Chelsea, where it’s nothing to do with the system and just him being really poor. There may not be many keepers who’d look great on our system, but I’d wager there are a fair few who’d look better than Bart currently.
I’m not saying he won’t be an exceptional goalkeeper in a few years, but there’s no guarantee of that and he’s not exceptional *right now*, like Caicedo and Mac were when they left. It’s not that there’s no point persisting with him, or that I’m particularly itching to move him on. I just think if we got a reasonable offer we should seriously consider it, and we could probably improve on him if we wanted too.
The data doesn’t take into account the defence in front of you or the style of play that leaves you exposed. That’s my point. I don’t think any keeper outside of Allison or Ederson looks good in this system.You can out isolated examples (the Minteh one isn’t the best to choose as it was on his wrong foot, hence the low Xg) but a) they are based on literally thousands of incidents and b) Bart is clear bottom of that particular table…..even giving him the benefit of the doubt on a couple won’t change that. The algo probably wouldn’t be identifying him as a potential purchase now
I mean it went through his legs. Most people acknowledge that’s a difficult place to make a save.The Leicester opening goal not solid keeping?
The data doesn’t take into account the defence in front of you or the style of play that leaves you exposed. That’s my point. I don’t think any keeper outside of Allison or Ederson looks good in this system.
In a model that isn’t full proof or perfect, as highlighted by the xG given to Minteh’s chance.But it does take into account the difficulty of the shots faced and if it would be expected to be saved or not.
The data doesn’t take into account the defence in front of you or the style of play that leaves you exposed. That’s my point. I don’t think any keeper outside of Allison or Ederson looks good in this system.
In a model that isn’t full proof or perfect, as highlighted by the xG given to Minteh’s chance.
First goal literally went through him from an angle that favoured him. I just haven’t joined the discussion because, I think the bigger issue is the quality of coaching he’s receiving.Data’s lovely and all, but there are always anomalies. For example, he was supposed to only concede 1.5 goals against Leicester, apparently, yet I don’t think anyone watching either of their goals thought he should’ve saved them.
Furthermore, against Palace he’s statistically only supposed to concede 0.9 of the two goals apparently - again though, I don’t think anyone watching either of those thinks he’s to blame.
Similarly, Minteh’s first half miss from about 2 yards out with an open goal, the type of miss that almost every match going fan would be disappointed to miss, only had an xG of 0.09…
Data’s great, but sometimes it doesn’t tell the whole story.